6
   

Inflate or destroy self?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:23 am
@igm,
Ha ! ! ! I had completely forgotten about that thread. That was pretty funny.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:29 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Ha ! ! ! I had completely forgotten about that thread. That was pretty funny.

igm wrote:

Personally... his favourite name for me is 'little bitch' and his favorite name for the Dalai Lama is 'pig'... nuff said.


Funny.....
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:39 am
@igm,
Quote:
I prefer 'letting go of the notion of a self' to your phrase 'stopped imagining it'....... :-)


Right, but in the context I 'imagined' it, that would be the same. Perhaps imagination infers a bit more content.

Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:43 am
@igm,
Oh yeah, the Dalai Lama is pretty damned funny--in a hypocritical, greedy sort of sleazy pig way.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:46 am
@IRFRANK,
Imagination certainly implies that the concept of self previously did not exist until it was imagined. That shows a profound ignorance of children, even infants, who have a highly developed sense of self, and who consider themselves the center of the universe. This shows up before they have even begun to attempt to master language. I passed on the opportunity to comment on that load of bullshit that igm posted about the self, and "letting go," and i'll stick with that resolve.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:48 am
@Olivier5,
For your benefit my reference to "historians" (of which Setanta is quite an interesting one) was made in response to Setanta's demand for "origins". But "the fool" took over, failed to make the connection, and torpedoed a potentially fruitful exchange.

As to the your "existence of (unified)self thesis" there is nothing wrong with it if it works for you as a modus vivendi. All I can say is that I am one of the many for whom it does not work either at the personal level, or at the philosophical level. There is a certain degree of intellect bordering on the "metalogical" required to understand some of the alternative systems proposed so I understand there are those who cannot make that leap. However, even those with that ability will have vested interests in the maintenance of a concept of "self-integrity" and will defend their position accordingly.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:50 am
@fresco,
You just can't address the subject without name-calling, huh? The origin of an idea could easily have occurred an hour ago, or last week, or even last year. That would not qualify it as history. Frankly, i think you're just lying now to cover your pathetic ass for having lost your temper.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 09:59 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
I prefer 'letting go of the notion of a self' to your phrase 'stopped imagining it'....... :-)


Right, but in the context I 'imagined' it, that would be the same. Perhaps imagination infers a bit more content.



I'd say both work... just my personal preference Smile
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:07 am
@Setanta,
Are you saying children have no imagination ? They probably do not imagine concepts, or define them as such, but they have the imaginations just the same.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:07 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
This is a tour de force in fantasy.

Sorry, but it's not. Consider that none of us is very good at seeing our own weaknesses, and that this applies to you too. As I pointed out some time ago, you insulted me the moment I got here. I don’t mind (been subjected to much worse where I was posting before), but you should mind, as it makes you look weaker than you really are.

Quote:
Fresco said i was belligerent, for no better reason than that i criticized his ideas.

And I did so too, yet managed to keep the tone civil, by and large.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:17 am
@Olivier5,
It is both true that Setanta often insults as it is true mostly he has some well funded reason to do so...I rather have 10.000 Setanta's around that 1 single Fresco...while Set simply looses temper and normally although not always with good reason, Fresco is to put it mildly, an artificer, a politician, a bureaucrat at the service of a falling current in Philosophy...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:19 am
@igm,
Quote:
We can't be both connected and individuals... unless you can explain how? We can't love and be alone.. unless you can explain how?

Because the connection is always imperfect.

Quote:
The concept of self naturally gives rise to the concept of other. If one can't find where the demarcation is between the two then it is just a symptom of a belief in a self that gives rise to the notion of 'melting into masses' and the notion of 'dangerous' .... we are already on mass of reality.. but with infinite views of what reality is... so to speak... those different views produce the illusion of individuality.... or do you disagree?

Not sure what you are saying, rather... To me, the self is first an evidence, a given, a direct result of our most intimate perceptions. I can lift my arm but I can't lift your arm -- I know what I think but not what you think -- things as simple as that. It's much more than a concept, it's an obvious reality.

As for the danger of abandoning our sense of self, I am saying that Nazism was objectively dangerous. Millions died as a result of so many people being all too willing to surrender their individual self and reach total cohesion and communion with the group. We're not bees. We're not ants. We're not made for that. As much as we long for a sense of belonging to a group, the "us vs. them" mentality is objectively dangerous, I think.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:24 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I find it curious that most peole fail to recognize that most of the time, fresco relates current trends in the different schools of philosophy and science. He is probably the most educated of us all when it comes to such things.

The people who attack him seem to have no recognition that fresco offers critisism, and damn good critisism too.

If you manage to get him down to the level of the normal a2k banter, you are missing out of what could otherwise be a great oportunity to get a litte more up to date on what is actually going on in contemporary philosophy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:28 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Consider that none of us is very good at seeing our own weaknesses, and that this applies to you too. As I pointed out some time ago, you insulted me the moment I got here.


You certainly aren't any good at seeing your own weaknesses.

This is a link to your first post at this site. I did not respond to that post.

Your next two posts were in that thread. Again, i did not respond to those posts. You then posted several times in the "Why I Am an Atheist" thread, and once again in the Amanda Berry thread, before i commented on a post of yours in the Why i am an atheist thread. This is the entire post i made:

Setanta wrote:
Man, you love making sweeping generalizations.

Quote:
Beliefs are stuff you, and not your brother necessarily, badly want to be true. So that the whole story of your life and your surrounding universe make sense.


This is utter nonsense, and raises belief to the level of religious fanaticism. While certainly some belief is religious in nature, not all beliefs are religious. For example, i believe that cross traffic will stop on a red light, and that therefore it is safe to enter an intersection without stopping when i have a green light. That's not necessarily always true, and i just barely avoided a serious accident one night when someone did not stop on their red light. But i continue to believe it based on the balance of experience--it's a safe bet, so to speak. People (reasonably) believe a wide range of things on an experiential basis, and most of them have nothing to do with profound questions of the nature of reality, whether or not there is a deity and cosmogony.

Quote:
No great deed was ever achieved without a good dose of faith in something or another.


Leaving aside the dubious nature of this claim, you fail to make a distinction between blind faith (believing without evidence just because one wants to) and informed faith, which relies upon one's experience and knowledge of human nature. That's the basic problem with all of the drivel in your post.


You consider it an insult for someone to tell you that you make sweeping generalizations? You consider it an insult to be told that your post is drivel? Are you not able to separate what you say from who you are? I did not question your sanity, you intelligence, nor did i call you any names.

It seems to me that you must have the same problem which Fresco appears to have--you cannot separate your ideas from your sense of self, and so you take any criticism of your expressed ideas to be an attack on you personally. Indeed, some people are not very good at seeing their own weaknesses.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:33 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I don't buy Fresco's ideas either, but my point is that Set's temper is a disservice to him, as it makes him look foolish. In my experience, it also clouds his judgment. On another thread he was pouncing on me as I was trying to show FBM that his philosophy was full of contradictions. Set was taking FBM's side just because Set and I had clashed previously (on my first day here)... yet now I see him pouncing on Fresco and igm using pretty much the same arguments I was using against FBM... The guy has no consistency other than permanent anger and good writing skills.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:36 am
@Olivier5,
Here we go again . . . you have no idea what my "temper" is, nor have you any way to know if i am angry or not. Once again, i did not respond to you at all on your first day here. I can hardly be blamed if you are irrationally paranoid.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:38 am
@Setanta,
Ok so it was not the exact moment I got here, but a day later or something. Anyway, I know of better ways to start a conversation than call someone's ideas "utter nonsense" and "drivel"... Apparently you don't.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:42 am
@Setanta,
He is right in one thing though. You deliver your insults and curses in impeccable English. In my opinion, it greatly enhances the effect. Wink
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:51 am
@Olivier5,
Poor bay-bee . . . no one must ever tell you you have posted utter nonsense, even when you have posted utter nonsense?
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2013 10:52 am
@Cyracuz,
Thanks . . . i guess. People love to deny this, but i insult people who have insulted me. Tough ****.
0 Replies
 
 

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