@Advocate,
T
Quote:here is a saying to the effect that sending an email is tantamount to publishing the information in a newspaper. Thus, act accordingly
nonsense..........as far as the legal and the moral question at least..
Based upon what I understand of the program, if it is executed as explained, it doesn't really violate any American's privacy. Your phone number is not private, whether unlisted or not, and if all they are storing are numbers and length of calls, no problem.
Presumably a court approved warrant is required to delve into content of phone calls and e-mail. Unfortunately, in terms of transparency, that court process is secret.
Thus we are left with whether or not we trust the people who are collecting this data and who are granting permission to invade our privacy.
Blind trust in any aspect of the government, irrespective of the party controlling all or part of it, is idiotic. We should all have a very healthy skepticism about our government's trustworthiness because it is nothing more than a vast organization of thousands upon thousands of individuals.
The old saying about a chain being only as strong has it's weakest link applies to trust in the government.
Since our government changes hands rather frequently, we also need to examine the current leaders in determining the level of trust we are willing to provide them.
If the IRS targets people and groups based on political views, the Justice Department crosses the line with journalists, and the head of the NSA lies to congress about collecting data on Americans, I'm not very willing to give them much of my trust.
Civilization and society started when humans banded together and gave up lots of privacy and individual rights.
As civilization progressed...more and more individual rights were given up...and less and less privacy was available.
This is progress.
It will continue.
What we all have to do is stop making it into a negative...and extract what positive we can from it.
But it will happen no matter how we handle it.
@Frank Apisa,
Still informing Grandma how eggs are sucked eh?
We handle hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts, fires, snowstorms and a lot more besides. And we extract what positives we can from them. Or some of us do at least.
The question here is whether it will end in a smoking ruin or in the sunny uplands.
That's something to be agnostic about.
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Still informing Grandma how eggs are sucked eh?
We handle hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts, fires, snowstorms and a lot more besides. And we extract what positives we can from them. Or some of us do at least.
The question here is whether it will end in a smoking ruin or in the sunny uplands.
That's something to be agnostic about.
I'm sorry, Spendius...
...where you saying something?
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:What we all have to do is stop making it into a negative...and extract what positive we can from it.
But it will happen no matter how we handle it.
Only if we allow it as there is nothing that force the government or businesses to keep details records of our actions for years or decades in a searchable manner just because it is now possible to do so.
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Quote:What we all have to do is stop making it into a negative...and extract what positive we can from it.
But it will happen no matter how we handle it.
Only if we allow it as there is nothing that force the government or businesses to keep details records of our actions for years or decades in a searchable manner just because it is now possible to do so.
Nothing "forced" the government to keep detailed pictures of fingerprints for years of decades either, but "the government" decided that it was a good idea...and would help with public safety issues...so they did it.
That is what is happening now.
It won't stop...and 50 years from now will be regarded the way we currently regard fingerprint files.
If "the people" want it changed, they can vote in people who will change it.
(Lots of luck with that.)
@Frank Apisa,
I
Quote:t won't stop...and 50 years from now will be regarded the way we currently regard fingerprint files.
If "the people" want it changed, they can vote in people who will change it.
(Lots of luck with that.)
So you think that we are on the path of a total surveillance state where all our actions are in some government data base?
Does not off hand seem to be a system I would care to live under.
@BillRM,
****, you're living under that system now, Bill. Wake up!
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:****, you're living under that system now, Bill. Wake up!
Let see I have a cat lying on one of my arms so I will need to keep this short.
No we are still a numbers of years away from a complete surveillance state.
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
I
Quote:t won't stop...and 50 years from now will be regarded the way we currently regard fingerprint files.
If "the people" want it changed, they can vote in people who will change it.
(Lots of luck with that.)
So you think that we are on the path of a total surveillance state where all our actions are in some government data base?
Was there a reason you changed what I said to "So you think that we are on the path of a total surveillance state where all our actions are in some government data base?
Surveillance IS increasing...and will continue to do so. Whether it will ever get to "all" is something I do not know. I don't even KNOW it will get more prevalent...but I would make a big bet that it will.
I am not willing to make a knee-jerk reaction that it HAS TO BE BAD. There may be value to it.
Does not off hand seem to be a system I would care to live under.
[/quote]
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:...where you saying something?
Yes. Are you pretending you don't know what?
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Nothing "forced" the government to keep detailed pictures of fingerprints for years of decades either, but "the government" decided that it was a good idea...and would help with public safety issues...so they did it.
That is what is happening now.
It won't stop...and 50 years from now will be regarded the way we currently regard fingerprint files.
If "the people" want it changed, they can vote in people who will change it.
(Lots of luck with that.)
nope. the government decided that the more power it had over its citizens the better, for it. make trouble for the government and then wait to see what they have on you. combine complete surveillance with secret courts and secret laws and they can put anyone they want away at any time. remember that the point of the Gestapo dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night was not that person, it was everyone else, it was the message "cross us and then we will do this to you" . if you dont fear the state having the unlimited power over its citizens that the US now has then you must be an idiot. this always goes to a bad place.
as some columnist said..a secret kangaroo court with a rubber stamp...if you think it will protect you you are delusional.
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Quote:...where you saying something?
Yes. Are you pretending you don't know what?
No...actually I was pretending I cared.
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Nothing "forced" the government to keep detailed pictures of fingerprints for years of decades either, but "the government" decided that it was a good idea...and would help with public safety issues...so they did it.
That is what is happening now.
It won't stop...and 50 years from now will be regarded the way we currently regard fingerprint files.
If "the people" want it changed, they can vote in people who will change it.
(Lots of luck with that.)
nope. the government decided that the more power it had over its citizens the better, for it. make trouble for the government and then wait to see what they have on you. combine complete surveillance with secret courts and secret laws and they can put anyone they want away at any time. remember that the point of the Gestapo dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night was not that person, it was everyone else, it was the message "cross us and then we will do this to you" . if you dont fear the state having the unlimited power over its citizens that the US now has then you must be an idiot. this always goes to a bad place.
as some columnist said..a secret kangaroo court with a rubber stamp...if you think it will protect you you are delusional.
Sorry, Hawkeye...I am not worried about the government as much as I am about all the conspiracy theorists who are moaning and groaning about damn near everything these days.
There is much more to fear from people who constantly cry "wolf" and "the sky is falling" than there is from government.
At least, that is my opinion.
So that whole 4th Amendment thing was a waste - just the Founders being naive? It's not the business of the government to track the phone calls of law abiding citizens as a preventive measure, nor to tell the phone companies that they force the information from that they'll go to jail if they tell the truth about what's happening. It's absolutely contrary to the spirit of America and I want it stopped.
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
So that whole 4th Amendment thing was a waste - just the Founders being naive? It's not the business of the government to track the phone calls of law abiding citizens as a preventive measure, nor to tell the phone companies that they force the information from that they'll go to jail if they tell the truth about what's happening. It's absolutely contrary to the spirit of America and I want it stopped.
How can you say that, Brandon?
Not a single delegate spoke out against tracking phone conversations during deliberations.
By the way, nice to see ya back.
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:There is much more to fear from people who constantly cry "wolf" and "the sky is falling" than there is from government.
Tell that to the people of Vietnam, 2+million dead, Frank. Tell that to the people of Iraq, 1.5+ million dead, Frank. Afghanistan, 1 million?? dead.
Don't you find it odd that the US never keeps track of the numbers of "oppressed people" it slaughters when it propagandizes that that's the "mission"?
Quote:At least, that is my opinion.
Why is it that you have so damn many terribly uninformed opinions?
@JTT,
tell that to the Chinese, were asking for government service one time too many tends to earn two years of hard labor at "re-education camp".
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:Your email and your chats and your phone calls over the net is not in a public space and you should not need to go to extreme means to keep such private.
The reality of the situation is such that that is not true.
