17
   

We Have No Privacy, We Are Always Being Watched.

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2013 10:42 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
But John Yoo, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and a former Bush administration lawyer,


That's just nuts, to be reporting what a war criminal has to say.

Which law exactly did former president Bush violate? Presumably a criminal is someone who violates a law.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 07:20 am
Quote:


http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/08/03/usa-security-hacking-ethics-idINL1N0G404020130803


U.S. NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers


By Joseph Menn
LAS VEGAS | Sat Aug 3, 2013 11:50pm IST
Aug 3 (Reuters) - The U.S. government's efforts to recruit talented hackers could suffer from the recent revelations about its vast domestic surveillance programs, as many private researchers express disillusionment with the National Security Agency.

Though hackers tend to be anti-establishment by nature, the NSA and other intelligence agencies had made major inroads in recent years in hiring some of the best and brightest, and paying for information on software flaws that help them gain access to target computers and phones.

Much of that goodwill has been erased after the NSA's classified programs to monitor phone records and Internet activity were exposed by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, according to prominent hackers and cyber experts.

A turn in the community's sentiment was on show at two major security conventions in Las Vegas this week: Black Hat, which attracts more established cyber professionals, and Def Con, which gets a larger gathering of younger, more independent hackers.

"We've gone backwards about 10 years in the relations between the good guys and the U.S. government," said Alex Stamos, a veteran security researcher who was to give a Def Con talk on Saturday on the need to revisit industry ethics.

Stamos has willingly briefed FBI and NSA officials on his work in the past, but said that he would now want their questions in writing and he would bring a lawyer to any meeting.

With top intelligence officials warning in March that cyber attacks and cyber espionage have supplanted terrorism as the top security threat facing the United States, the administration is trying to boost security in critical infrastructure and the military is vastly increasing its ranks of computer specialists.

The NSA, working with the Department of Homeland Security, has been lending more of its expertise to protect defense contractors, banks, utilities and other industries that are being spied upon or attacked by rival nations.

These efforts rely on recruiting talented hackers and working with professionals in the private sector.

Some security experts remain supportive of the government. NSA Director Keith Alexander's talk at the Black Hat conference was well received on Wednesday, despite a few hecklers.

But at the larger and less expensive Def Con, where attendance is expected to top last year's 15,000, conference founder and government advisor Jeff Moss asked federal agents to stay away.

Moss last year brought Alexander as a keynote speaker to woo the hacking community. But he said the relationship between hackers and the government has worsened since then.

"I haven't seen this level or sort of animosity since the 90s," Moss said in an interview. "If you aren't going to say anything in these circumstances, then you never are."

VILLAIN OR HERO
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 08:06 am
@BillRM,
Oh, well, by all means, we must keep the good will of internet hackers.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 08:12 am
N.S.A. Sifting Broader Set of Data Crossing U.S. Border

Quote:
WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency is searching the contents of vast amounts of Americans’ e-mail and text communications into and out of the country, hunting for people who mention information about foreigners under surveillance, according to intelligence officials.

The N.S.A. is not just intercepting the communications of Americans who are in direct contact with foreigners targeted overseas, a practice that government officials have openly acknowledged. It is also casting a far wider net for people who cite information linked to those foreigners, like a little used e-mail address, according to a senior intelligence official.


I don't know, maybe its just me, but I am finding it hard to work up any outrage over this stuff.

BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 10:47 am
@revelette,
Quote:
Oh, well, by all means, we must keep the good will of internet hackers.


Well the NSA seems to be of that opinion.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 10:51 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I don't know, maybe its just me, but I am finding it hard to work up any outrage over this stuff.

If the NSA knocked on your door and said "we're fighting terrorism, please hand over all your phone l0gs, emails and Internet logs" would you say, "just a moment, let me get them" or "why on earth are you asking me for this?"
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 11:39 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

revelette wrote:
I don't know, maybe its just me, but I am finding it hard to work up any outrage over this stuff.

If the NSA knocked on your door and said "we're fighting terrorism, please hand over all your phone l0gs, emails and Internet logs" would you say, "just a moment, let me get them" or "why on earth are you asking me for this?"


My guess is that Revelette feels as I do. I would simply say..."it is okay with me to do what you are doing...you do not even have to ask me. I have nothing to hide."
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 11:45 am
@engineer,
If NSA knocked on my door first off I would die of shock. I don't think NSA knocks on doors. The conduct surveillances, then if there is sufficient evidence, the FBI might be knocking on door. If they did, I would give them whatever they asked for, if they had a warrant; which more than likely they would because I am a US citizen.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 11:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
@ Revelette

Revelette

The world has gotten so complex that the kind of "privacy" to which some people think we ought be entitled simply is no longer going to exist.

It is a shame that things have gotten to the point where we have to give up much of that vaunted privacy, but THINGS HAVE GOTTEN TO THAT POINT.

The people making the most fuss about it are the ones who, if a another serious attack occurred here or elsewhere in the world, would be demanding to know why the government had not done more to prevent it.

Taking away some of the privacy with the "snooping" being done...IS DOING MORE TO TRY TO PREVENT IT.

Nothing will prevent such attacks...but doing something will at least help in that direction.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 11:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
My guess is that Revelette feels as I do. I would simply say..."it is okay with me to do what you are doing...you do not even have to ask me. I have nothing to hide."


Founding fathers would be rolling in their graves as they never did trust the very government they was creating and placed all manners of safe guards in placed to limit that government power including the fourth amendment.

Now if they was coming into my home they better have a warrant and after carrying out all my computer gear I would be laughing thinking of the amount of resources and computer time they would shortly be eating up in trying to break my layers of computer security and if in the end they did so they would find zero of interests.

Every millions of dollars that are used to break my security is that must less resources available to invade someone else rights to privacy.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 12:11 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
My guess is that Revelette feels as I do. I would simply say..."it is okay with me to do what you are doing...you do not even have to ask me. I have nothing to hide."


Founding fathers would be rolling in their graves as they never did trust the very government they was creating and placed all manners of safe guards in placed to limit that government power including the fourth amendment.

Now if they was coming into my home they better have a warrant and after carrying out all my computer gear I would be laughing thinking of the amount of resources and computer time they would shortly be eating up in trying to break my layers of computer security and if in the end they did so they would find zero of interests.

Every millions of dollars that are used to break my security is that must less resources available to invade someone else rights to privacy.


Well...if they had some reason to do it...I find it interesting that you would delight in seeing them waste taxpayer money doing it.

But to each his/her own.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 12:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
interesting that you would delight in seeing them waste taxpayer money doing it.Well...if they had some reason to do it...I find it


More then delighted and that is the reason that I decided if they ever would demand the searching of my computer on the way back into the country I would cheerfully hand it over to them and wish them the best of luck.

No matter how must resources they have to spy on the citizens there is a limit that would be reach in short order if even a few hundreds thousands in a nation of 300 millions would made them work at it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 12:36 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
interesting that you would delight in seeing them waste taxpayer money doing it.Well...if they had some reason to do it...I find it


More then delighted and that is the reason that I decided if they ever would demand the searching of my computer on the way back into the country I would cheerfully hand it over to them and wish them the best of luck.

No matter how must resources they have to spy on the citizens there is a limit that would be reach in short order if even a few hundreds thousands in a nation of 300 millions would made them work at it.


Yup...your precious privacy and right to carry arms is much more important than having society function in a reasonable way.

You are being myopic, Bill.

And I just love your certainty that you are more able to protect against intrusion (cyber) than most people. My guess is they could trace you in no time at all...and could crack your computer walls in about the same time.

Hope it never comes down to that. They can have access to every piece of information they want about me.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 12:43 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

If they did, I would give them whatever they asked for, if they had a warrant; which more than likely they would because I am a US citizen.

And yet they are taking that exact data without a warrant right now even though you are a US citizen. If you would demand a warrant if they came to your door, why wouldn't you demand a warrant when they are doing it surreptitiously?
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 12:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess is that Revelette feels as I do. I would simply say..."it is okay with me to do what you are doing...you do not even have to ask me. I have nothing to hide."

Having nothing to hide and expecting a little privacy are different matters. The NSA spied on military members talking to their spouses from Iraq and Afganistan, especially juicy sex talk. They have all the Internet links that you look at. Are you sure that taken out of context some of those links wouldn't paint an interesting picture? Look at any porn? Read up about gay rights a lot? Read a lot of overseas newspapers? Have you exchanged email with any doctors? Should the NSA be privy to your medical emails? They are now and the idea that your private information will not leaked, misused or taken out of context has already been proven false.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 01:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

The people making the most fuss about it are the ones who, if a another serious attack occurred here or elsewhere in the world, would be demanding to know why the government had not done more to prevent it.

I'm one of the ones making a fuss, but if another serious attack occurs, you will not see me screaming about it. The number of deaths by toddlers wielding hand guns exceeds the number of terrorism deaths in the US in 2013 (by 4 to 1). There are ~30,000 auto deaths in the US in any given year and I'm not demanding all my rights be taken away to prevent them. Drunk driving deaths are around 10,000 annually but I'm not calling for prohibition. The idea that we will give up all the protections of the fourth amendment to possibly prevent a few deaths is laughable when we look at the routine risks we tolerate every day. You are giving up a lot for very little return.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 01:06 pm
@engineer,
You know it sad that a US citizen should for example feel the need to boot Tor so he could look at a copy of inspire magazine to find out what the hell the news was talking about after the Boston bombing.

But then who would wish take the chance of finding themselves on a no fly list a list that someone in government can place anyone on with no rights to court appeal.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 01:19 pm
@engineer,
Actually from what I read, the emails they read has to be from or about a foreign source but if someone has some kind of connection with that foreign source, then that email can be read as well. (if I understand it right)For example I guess, say you have in the past corresponded with a foreign person of interest (not sure how to word it), then later that that communication between you is discovered, then all your emails, text, forum data... I guess are up for scrutiny without a warrant. I think there are bills being introduced which might address that. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it, but I can understand why people would.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 01:30 pm
@engineer,
But the gun and road deaths, and injuries, are a consequence of the way we choose to live our lives and we make expensive efforts to minimise them in order to reduce the dysfunctional aspects of our choice. All choices involve some dysfunction.

Terrorist caused deaths are an effort to change our way of life, drastically, and those engaged in them attempt maximum effect.

Matters of degree are not matters of style. In the former the deaths are caused by flaws in our style which might be eventually removed. In the latter our style is being attacked and the attacks will increase if we don't make a fuss. They are a Holy War.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2013 01:31 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess is that Revelette feels as I do. I would simply say..."it is okay with me to do what you are doing...you do not even have to ask me. I have nothing to hide."

Having nothing to hide and expecting a little privacy are different matters. The NSA spied on military members talking to their spouses from Iraq and Afganistan, especially juicy sex talk. They have all the Internet links that you look at. Are you sure that taken out of context some of those links wouldn't paint an interesting picture? Look at any porn? Read up about gay rights a lot? Read a lot of overseas newspapers? Have you exchanged email with any doctors? Should the NSA be privy to your medical emails? They are now and the idea that your private information will not leaked, misused or taken out of context has already been proven false.


Yup...visit porn sites..which are video Viagra for old geezers like me. I scratch my ass a lot...and occasionally have a **** stain in my boxers. About a year ago, I accidentally pissed the bed (just a tiny bit before waking)...and I swear a lot on the golf course.

I do lots of things that could be embarrassing.

Tough!

I'll live with it.

The "privacy" thing is VASTLY overdone.

You have a right to want it...and a right to demand it.

But it is already gone...and there is not a damned thing you or anyone else can do about it.

The world has changed...and we will be living a lot closer to George Orwell's 1984 world soon. Much sooner and much, much, much closer than most people want to accept.
 

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