17
   

We Have No Privacy, We Are Always Being Watched.

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Here is a link to calculating deaths and property damage from nuclear weapons you might find interesting.

https://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/lecture2007_weaponeffects.pdf
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:32 pm
You know now that this information is coming out with special note of the US government spying on everyone that used the internet that is not in the US that they can it likely one to cause far less traffic to be routed by way of the US networks and the beginning of encrypting of all traffic of whatever nature on the net.

footnote it would be interesting to know by how must the tor network had grown in the last few weeks alone.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:36 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Why not round up all the 18-29 year old Muslim males and interrogate them then let the innocent ones go?

Judging by BillRM's thinking, which I've cited by quoting his remarks in another thread, he'd likely agree with that--he views all Muslims as suspect when it comes to terrorism, and he sees nothing wrong with violating their civil rights to benefit our national security. And, I agree with you--that sort of thing would be moving down a very slippery slope.
Quote:
That is why the government should subpoena the terrorist's phone records and not mine.

How do they know you're not a terrorist?
Quote:
If the government has need for that data, let them prove it to a judge on a person by person basis. I see no need for them to have my data unless they can show I am a person of interest in a crime

Again, it's the wide-scale phone metadata collection that enables the government to begin to find those terrorists, those "persons of interest", those needles in a haystack. And, again, I'm not necessarily supporting this sort of operation, but I understand the rationale behind it. And I understand that the Patriot Act handed the government the power to do it.

They do need a warrant to look into the actual calls when you become "a person of interest". The phone metadata they otherwise collect on you is not really private--it was never totally private--it's already known to Verizon, and the government really can't go beyond what Verizon already knows without obtaining a warrant.

I agree with you there is potential for abuse here. That's why we need oversight and checks and balances.

I also agree with you that the government may not be protecting the security of its own information with sufficient vigor. And that also raises all sorts of questions about the government's use of independent contractors, like the one Snowden worked for.

Quote:
The New York Times
June 16, 2013
Living With the Surveillance State
By BILL KELLER

MY colleague Thomas Friedman’s levelheaded take on the National Security Agency eavesdropping uproar needs no boost from me. His column soared to the top of the “most e-mailed” list and gathered a huge and mostly thoughtful galaxy of reader comments. Judging from the latest opinion polling, it also reflected the prevailing mood of the electorate. It reflected mine. But this is a discussion worth prolonging, with vigilant attention to real dangers answering overblown rhetoric about theoretical ones.

Tom’s important point was that the gravest threat to our civil liberties is not the N.S.A. but another 9/11-scale catastrophe that could leave a panicky public willing to ratchet up the security state, even beyond the war-on-terror excesses that followed the last big attack. Reluctantly, he concludes that a well-regulated program to use technology in defense of liberty — even if it gives us the creeps — is a price we pay to avoid a much higher price, the shutdown of the world’s most open society. Hold onto that qualifier: “well regulated.”

The N.S.A. data-mining is part of something much larger. On many fronts, we are adjusting to life in a surveillance state, relinquishing bits of privacy in exchange for the promise of other rewards. We have a vague feeling of uneasiness about these transactions, but it rarely translates into serious thinking about where we set the limits.

Exhibit A: In last Thursday’s Times Joseph Goldstein reported that local law enforcement agencies, “largely under the radar,” are amassing their own DNA databanks, and they often do not play by the rules laid down for the databases compiled by the F.B.I. and state crime labs. As a society, we have accepted DNA evidence as a reliable tool both for bringing the guilty to justice and for exonerating the wrongly accused. But do we want police agencies to have complete license — say, to sample our DNA surreptitiously, or to collect DNA from people not accused of any wrongdoing, or to share our most private biological information? Barry Scheck, co-director of the Innocence Project and a member of the New York State Commission on Forensic Science, says regulators have been slow to respond to what he calls rogue databanks. And a recent Supreme Court ruling that defined DNA-gathering as a legitimate police practice comparable to fingerprinting is likely to encourage more freelancing. Scheck says his fear is that misuse will arouse public fears of government overreach and discredit one of the most valuable tools in our justice system. “If you ask the American people, do you support using DNA to catch criminals and exonerate the innocent, everybody says yes,” Scheck told me. “If you ask, do you trust the government to have your DNA, everybody says no.”

Exhibit B: Nothing quite says Big Brother like closed-circuit TV. In Orwell’s Britain, which is probably the democratic world’s leading practitioner of CCTV monitoring, the omnipresent pole-mounted cameras are being supplemented in some jurisdictions by wearable, night-vision cop-cams that police use to record every drunken driver, domestic violence call and restive crowd they encounter. New York last year joined with Microsoft to introduce the eerily named Domain Awareness System, which connects 3,000 CCTV cameras (and license-plate scanners and radiation detectors) around the city and allows police to cross-reference databases of stolen cars, wanted criminals and suspected terrorists. Fans of TV thrillers like “Homeland,” “24” and the British series “MI-5” (guilty, guilty and guilty) have come to think of the omnipresent camera as a crime-fighting godsend. But who watches the watchers? Announcing the New York system, the city assured us that no one would be monitored because of race, religion, citizenship status, political affiliation, etc., to which one skeptic replied, “But we’ve heard that one before.”

Exhibit C: Congress has told the F.A.A. to set rules for the use of spy drones in American air space by 2015. It is easy to imagine the value of this next frontier in surveillance: monitoring forest fires, chasing armed fugitives, search-and-rescue operations. Predator drones already patrol our Southern border for illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. Indeed, border surveillance may be critical in persuading Congress to pass immigration reform that would extend our precious liberty to millions living in the shadows. I for one would count that a fair trade. But where does it stop? Scientific American editorialized in March: “Privacy advocates rightly worry that drones, equipped with high-resolution video cameras, infrared detectors and even facial-recognition software, will let snoops into realms that have long been considered private.” Like your backyard. Or, with the sort of thermal imaging used to catch the Boston bombing fugitive hiding under a boat tarp, your bedroom.

And then there is the Internet. We seem pretty much at peace, verging on complacent, about the exploitation of our data for commercial, medical and scientific purposes — as trivial as the advertising algorithm that pitches us camping gear because we searched the Web for wilderness travel, as valuable as the digital record-sharing that makes sure all our doctors know what meds we’re on.

In an online debate about the N.S.A. eavesdropping story the other day, Eric Posner, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, pointed out that we have grown comfortable with the Internal Revenue Service knowing our finances, employees of government hospitals knowing our medical histories, and public-school teachers knowing the abilities and personalities of our children.

“The information vacuumed up by the N.S.A. was already available to faceless bureaucrats in phone and Internet companies — not government employees but strangers just the same,” Posner added. “Many people write as though we make some great sacrifice by disclosing private information to others, but it is in fact simply the way that we obtain services we want — whether the market services of doctors, insurance companies, Internet service providers, employers, therapists and the rest or the nonmarket services of the government like welfare and security.”

Privacy advocates will retort that we surrender this information wittingly, but in reality most of us just let it slip away. We don’t pay much attention to privacy settings or the “terms of service” fine print. Our two most common passwords are “password” and “123456.”

From time to time we get worrisome evidence of data malfeasance, such as the last big revelation of N.S.A. eavesdropping, in 2005, which disclosed that the agency was tapping Americans without the legal nicety of a warrant, or the more recent I.R.S. targeting of right-wing political groups. But in most cases the advantages of intrusive technology are tangible and the abuses are largely potential. Edward Snowden’s leaks about N.S.A. data-mining have, so far, not included evidence of any specific abuse.

The danger, it seems to me, is not surveillance per se. We have already decided, most of us, that life on the grid entails a certain amount of intrusion. Nor is the danger secrecy, which, as Posner notes, “is ubiquitous in a range of uncontroversial settings,” a promise the government makes to protect “taxpayers, inventors, whistle-blowers, informers, hospital patients, foreign diplomats, entrepreneurs, contractors, data suppliers and many others.”

The danger is the absence of rigorous, independent regulation and vigilant oversight to keep potential abuses of power from becoming a real menace to our freedom. The founders created a system of checks and balances, but the safeguards have not kept up with technology. Instead, we have an executive branch in a leak-hunting frenzy, a Congress that treats oversight as a form of partisan combat, a political climate that has made “regulation” an expletive and a public that feels a generalized, impotent uneasiness. I don’t think we’re on a slippery slope to a police state, but I think if we are too complacent about our civil liberties we could wake up one day and find them gone — not in a flash of nuclear terror but in a gradual, incremental surrender.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/17/opinion/keller-living-with-the-surveillance-state.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:41 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The New York Times
June 16, 2013
Living With the Surveillance State
By BILL KELLER


Firefly quotes the devil himself.

"The New York Times is the house organ of the Establishment. It is committed, both editorially and in its presentation of the news, to the interests of an Establishment: continuity, security and legitimacy. Therefore they generally support business and finance, the American version of empire, the government and the president, until, and unless, some excess is so egregious that it poses a threat to continuity, security or legitimacy."

Larry Beinhart

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:54 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
udging by BillRM's thinking, which I've cited by quoting his remarks in another thread, he'd likely agree with that--he views all Muslims as suspect w


God you have no shame in being willing to lied to this degree!!!!!!!!!

Who do you think you are fooling????????/

Quote:
How do they know you're not a terrorist?


That right Firefly we should go from presume innocents until proven guilty to presume a terrorist until proven otherwise.

Quote:
That's why we need oversight and checks and balances.


LOL oversight by a secret court that have never turn down a request and a congress that have been lied to in front of the whole nation just a week or so ago.

Some oversight indeed.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Isn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?


But the serious terrorists know all about that. The point having been made before on here you might be suspected of not reading all posts.

Quote:
Getting those answers should be the main focus now.


Good luck with that. There's no intelligence worth a banana if we all know it. Except a warning siren.

Everything you find out the terrorists find out.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 01:21 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You're leaving out the beneficial part--which is actually the motive for the phone metadata collection--we're trying to prevent terrorist attacks, and disrupt terrorist plans, remember.


The simple fact that you define "beneficial effects" the way you do and allow for no others is bound to get you to the point you set out to make because we are all sensible enough to wish terrorist plans disrupted but not all of us appreciate the verbal trick you just pulled. ff.

There's the pork. What did Utah do to get that little peach? What a nice place to stick the nation's nerds.

I pointed one out the other day. The financial sector. Which might actually cause a real "meltdown" the next time. We have not yet experienced there being no next time.

A scientist wouldn't praise science until he saw how it worked out. It would be as daft as praising a meat pie before two days had elapsed.

Even increased traffic in bird communication is a sign that they are nervous. Especially if they are sudden.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 01:26 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Some people would say, "I don't care if it would mean that millions would die...my personal privacy is more important that a few million people dying.


Millions? my these terrorists are powerful indeed and one need to wonder why they would not just leave us alone and use this incredible power to take over all the nations in the middle east as not all of them together had the means of defensing themselves we do.

Let see to get up to a million you would need a large hydrogen bomb in the middle of a large population center or ten or more fission bombs also placed in the middle of population centers, See the government issue manual of the effects of nuclear weapons for more information on the subject with graphs.

Pumping up a threat model to the level of millions of citizens likely to be killed is beyond riddance.


Some people who say that EVEN IF millions of citizens likely would be killed or maimed...I still demand my rights to privacy, because that is more important that those millions.

I am not of that mind.

Firefly is not of that mind.

Apparently you are of that mind.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 01:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
if the government is going to suspend the constitution then it must do so above board, claims that this was done below decks because millions of people were at risk if they did not is not good enough. there are NO situations were the government has the authority to subversively suspend our guaranteed rights.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 01:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Some people who say that EVEN IF millions of citizens likely would be killed or maimed...I still demand my rights to privacy, because that is more important that those millions.


I don't think that was meant literally. It's a bit like "I'd rather die than be seen in a frock like that!"
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 01:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
there are NO situations were the government has the authority to subversively suspend our guaranteed rights.


There are.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
if the government is going to suspend the constitution then it must do so above board...


But the government hasn't suspended the Constitution, Chicken Little. Try to stay within the bounds of reality.

And previous court rulings have not found that similar small-scale phone metadata collections did violate Fourth Amendment protections.





BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Some people who say that EVEN IF millions of citizens likely would be killed or maimed...I still demand my rights to privacy, because that is more important that those millions.

I am not of that mind.

Firefly is not of that mind.

Apparently you are of that mind.


Once more by pumping up the threat by throwing around millions of deaths as the possible harm if we do not go along with the government programs is being dishonest.

Oh my a nuclear 911 had been posted by Firefly along with some opinion writer she re-posted here crying about the danger of a nuclear 911 killing millions.

Number one the risk of them being able get a hold and then moving a nuclear weapon half way around the world and into one of our population center is far far beyond any degree of abilities they had shown to date.

Next if these assholes have such a weapon or weapons I can see them using ithem in the middle east more then the US as the hammer of god better known as the US military would come down on anyone in the middle east that is not our friends if we was hit by even a small nuclear device.

Drone strikes out of the empty blue sky would be the good old days.

Such a device might given "ideal" conditions might killed 30,0o0 or so or the number of people who died on our roadways ever year or less not a million less alone millions.

Once more see the link already posted on the effect of nuclear weapons.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

if the government is going to suspend the constitution then it must do so above board, claims that this was done below decks because millions of people were at risk if they did not is not good enough. there are NO situations were the government has the authority to subversively suspend our guaranteed rights.


Ahhh...IF the government is going to suspend the Constitution!

No one but people like you are talking about suspending the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:23 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Some people who say that EVEN IF millions of citizens likely would be killed or maimed...I still demand my rights to privacy, because that is more important that those millions.

I am not of that mind.

Firefly is not of that mind.

Apparently you are of that mind.


Once more by pumping up the threat by throwing around millions of deaths as the possible harm if we do not go along with the government programs is being dishonest.

Oh my a nuclear 911 had been posted by Firefly along with some opinion writer she re-posted here crying about the danger of a nuclear 911 killing millions.

Number one the risk of them being able get a hold and then moving a nuclear weapon half way around the world and into one of our population center is far far beyond any degree of abilities they had shown to date.

Next if these assholes have such a weapon or weapons I can see them using ithem in the middle east more then the US as the hammer of god better known as the US military would come down on anyone in the middle east that is not our friends if we was hit by even a small nuclear device.

Drone strikes out of the empty blue sky would be the good old days.

Such a device might given "ideal" conditions might killed 30,0o0 or so or the number of people who died on our roadways ever year or less not a million less alone millions.

Once more see the link already posted on the effect of nuclear weapons.




Yeah, protect your precious privacy, Bill.

Screw anyone who might get hurt.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:25 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
if the government is going to suspend the constitution then it must do so above board...


But the government hasn't suspended the Constitution, Chicken Little. Try to stay within the bounds of reality.

And previous court rulings have not found that similar small-scale phone metadata collections did violate Fourth Amendment protections.

even the chairman of the intelligence committee at the time the original law was passed says that the law was never intended to monitor all of the internet and phone usage for possible wrong doing, that Prism is in his mind an abuse of American citizen rights. he should know what the intent of the law was, he had a big hand in writing it and getting it passed. as such Prism is illegal on the grounds that it is being used in violation of the intent of Congress in adittion to the grounds that it is abusive.



Your statement does not speak to the legality of pulling the data from all phone calls or using filters to sift all of the internet which happens to be located in the USA.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:31 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
What did Utah do to get that little peach? What a nice place to stick the nation's nerds.


A well educated work force who are mostly conservative Mormons that due to their religion go on missionaries missions for two years around the world as young men/women and picked up language skills and direct knowledge of other areas of the world would be my guess.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yeah, protect your precious privacy, Bill.

Screw anyone who might get hurt.


Yes I know no risk is worth keeping our bill of rights intact not a drop of blood should be put at risk.

If you feel that way why not just go for meeting any demands of these groups if they would agree not to launch attacks on US soil?

Strange thinking however as once upon a time we was willing to lose over 300,000 northerns in a population of 20 millions or so to keep the union together along with the constitution.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:51 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Oh my a nuclear 911 had been posted by Firefly along with some opinion writer she re-posted here crying about the danger of a nuclear 911 killing millions.

Number one the risk of them being able get a hold and then moving a nuclear weapon half way around the world and into one of our population center is far far beyond any degree of abilities they had shown to date.

You have serious difficulty comprehending what you read, judging by the distorted versions you wind up with. I never said any such thing, nor did the opinion articles I posted.

Terrorists don't have to kill millions, or even hundreds of thousands, in the sort of catastrophic terrorist attack that Friedman suggests might set off a public panic that would really ratchet up the handing over of our civil liberties, and serve to destroy our open society.

And, unless you are incredibly naïve, you should be aware that terrorist attacks of a biochemical nature are certainly possible, and those could take many forms and attack various targets, and they really might not be all that difficult to pull off.

Because you were quite hysterical about the extreme potential terrorist dangers posed by all Muslims, including Muslim-Americans, in another thread at A2K, where you declared that, "The Constitutional is not a suicide pact," I'm baffled that your entire thrust now seems to be to downplay the possibility or magnitude of that very same terrorist threat. Your own views on this matter are very inconsistent. And, coupled with your inability to correctly interpret what you read, they are nothing more than a confused muddle that doesn't rise above the level of noise. That's all you put forth--noise. Noise isn't worth listening to.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2013 02:53 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, protect your precious privacy, Bill.

Screw anyone who might get hurt.


Yes I know no risk is worth keeping our bill of rights intact not a drop of blood should be put at risk.

If you feel that way why not just go for meeting any demands of these groups if they would agree not to launch attacks on US soil?

Strange thinking however as once upon a time we was willing to lose over 300,000 northerns in a population of 20 millions or so to keep the union together along with the constitution.


Stick with your precious right to privacy, Bill.

Who really gives a damn about the people who might die or be maimed in a dirty bomb attack that might be prevented if we bend a bit.

But you are correct...I guess I was inflating the figures. I mean..."millions!" C'mon, Frank...get real.

A dirty bomb attack might instantly kill ten, twenty thousand at most...and probably not more than three or four times that many over a few years.

Trifling numbers to someone who's privacy is as important as yours, right, Bill?
 

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