We Have No Privacy, We Are Always Being Watched.

@parados,

essential liberty?

Somehow the ability to have private communications over the issues of the day without government agents recording them seems one of the very basic of essential liberty in a so call democracy at least. Even if we give any credit to the government claims that they are only recording who we are talking to that would come under that concept of essential liberty.

Or to go about your everyday life without the government once more recordings your every actions.

Maybe Franklin would had approval of having his and everyone else mail being open and read or at best "only" having who you are sending letters to recorded and being follow around 24/7 but somehow I do not think so.

He did support the fourth amendment..........

1 Reply

@BillRM,

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Somehow the ability to have private communications over the issues of the day without government agents recording them seems one of the very basic of essential liberty in a so call democracy at least.

Gee... when you make that claim maybe you should provide some evidence to back it up.

There is no evidence of the US government recording calls of US citizens. But don't let your fantasies interfere with reality Bill because I'm sure Franklin was all about making stuff up when it comes to arguing what the government shouldn't be allowed to do.

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@parados,

Sorry dear heart they are now admitting to recording who we are talking to and such metadata as our gps locations of cell phone calls and that is more then enough by itself.

However repeat however they had been found to had openly lied to congress and the public about those programs so taking the word concerning the limit of such programs from known liars is not a good idea at least in my opinion.

Next they have more then enough capability to do so thanks to a many billions dollars computer.date center/spy center in Utah for example.

To sum up we have no reason not to assume they are doing everything that their spying infrastructure that had been build at a cost of untold billions will allow them to do.

Now if there was an independent expert non government oversight board that have complete power to go any where in connection to the government intelligent programs and give guarantees to congress and the public that those known liars are staying within the limits of the known programs maybe we could relaxed somewhat.

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@BillRM,

OMG.. And the government is probably sneaking into your bedroom at night to take out your kidneys too.

So.. you are worried about what you made up. OK.. I kind of figured that out already.

1 Reply

@parados,

Quote:

OMG.. And the government is probably sneaking into your bedroom at night to take out your kidneys too.

If the government had been found to had spend billions to have mobile vans with the equipments and the train personals to removed kidneys and little else and then had been found lying to the public and congress over the reasons for those vans there would be a need to have some concern over the matter. Drunk

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@BillRM,

The government has been shown to record phone numbers and time durations. They haven't been shown to record conversations. But don't let reality get in the way of your paranoia.

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@hawkeye10,

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to me lives are not equal, I care more about my people than I do about other people.

That's fair enough and it's what the people of most countries feel. But we're talking about a monster here, Hawk, a country that goes out and invades other nations only to steal their wealth.

The US doesn't line up against equal foes, it picks on the tiniest, most poorly defended nations. It cares not at all who its allies are except when those allies can help it consolidate its power to help it steal more from more poor nations.

It is the essence of perfidy, of treachery, of zero concern for the poor and oppressed yet it makes this huge pretense that it is concerned, again, just to help itself to the treasure of starving people the world over.

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and I am front and center when it comes to advocating recognizing facts even when they make us look bad.

You know you got caught out so you're trying to make Hawk look like the honest guy Hawk likes to says he is. Try being as honest as you make out and see how long you last with your compatriots.

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@MontereyJack,

MJ, MJ, MJ, from a guy who has been so wrong about so many things, you hardly should be pointing fingers.

Quote:

"The New York Times is the house organ of the Establishment. It is committed, both editorially and in its presentation of the news, to the interests of an Establishment: continuity, security and legitimacy. Therefore they generally support business and finance, the American version of empire, the government and the president, until, and unless, some excess is so egregious that it poses a threat to continuity, security or legitimacy."

Larry Beinhart

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@MontereyJack,

Quote:

incidentally, you're wrong about idioms. "Don;t count your chickens....: doesn't fit the Camb. Gram's definition of idioms, peculiar tho that def'n. is.

I'll move this chickenshit response to the location that you have cowardly abandoned because all your "points" were shown to be nonsense.

Are you talking about your dear ole gram's definition? With you, one can never be sure.

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@parados,

First phone numbers are names as you do not need must beyond a public reverse look-up website to get most names from phone numbers let alone with the power of government.

Next you can get a damn good idea of a person by just who he is calling such as, his social network, his lawyer, perhaps a New York time reporter, his doctor with special note of any medical experts and of course any females or males he is in the habit of talking to at 3 in the morning and so on.

Sorry who you are talking to and the amount of contact is not harmless information even if you happen to think it is.

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@hawkeye10,

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but his overall claim that Henry Kissinger is a war criminal I think is likely true.

Do you think ole Henry K was out there doing this all by himself?

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@BillRM,

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Next you can get a damn good idea of a person by just who he is calling such as, his social network,...

Isn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?

Quote:

Sorry who you are talking to and the amount of contact is not harmless information...

The calling information, in metadata phone collections, is not harmful in and of itself. Who that information is revealed to, and what they do with it, is what can potentially be harmful or beneficial.

You're leaving out the beneficial part--which is actually the motive for the phone metadata collection--we're trying to prevent terrorist attacks, and disrupt terrorist plans, remember. To the extent this phone metadata collection can help us do that, it is beneficial. And yes, if you're engaging in terrorist activities, and communicating with others of a similar mindset, knowledge of your phone records might be harmful to your plans, it might result in the foiling of such plans, and it might help to lead the government to you.

And, because we are searching for needles in haystacks, when looking for terrorists, we do have to examine the haystacks, which is why it may be beneficial to cast a wide-net and have wide-scale phone metadata collections. I'm not necessarily endorsing that, although I do see it as a practical necessity. I'm simply pointing out the obvious to you, since you often miss the obvious.

So, I repeat--the calling information collected, in and of itself, is neither harmful nor beneficial. Who that information is revealed to, and what they do with it, are the matters of significant concern. And those are the questions we must ask-- and are now asking. And we need to know who's doing the oversight, and whether the checks and balances, which are in place, are operating sufficiently to protect abuse or misuse of the information obtained. And we also need to know whether this program has been effective in disrupting any terrorist activities. Getting those answers should be the main focus now.

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@BillRM,

Phone numbers are often but not always names but phone numbers are NOT the contents of the communication which is what you said earlier.

I will agree that I have a problem with the government keeping records of phone numbers and what numbers they called. I don't however see any reason to argue about the government having the content of those communications when there is no evidence that the government has been keeping that.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

sn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?

Without question however the taking in of everyone in the damn country information is overkill on it face and holding that information for how long?

Great information source for anyone who wish to follow Hoover footsteps and set up a networks of blackmail informations to help control elements of the government.

You did not dare to fired Hoover or force him to resign/retired as he knew where all the bodies was buried.

Hoover used his information/dirt to both blackmail President Kennedy and to shut down a threatened congressional investigation into President Kennedy relationship with Ellen Rometsch a woman that was consider a communist agent and Judith Campbell Exner who had connections to the mob.

Sorry Firefly I know you just hate hearing about anything that had happen more then two minutes ago however Hoover is a good example of why government bureaucrats should not have access to information on in this caase all of us.

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You're leaving out the beneficial part--which is actually the motive for the phone metadata collection--we're trying to prevent terrorist attacks, and disrupt terrorist plans,

No I am not overlooking or leaving out anything as tearing up the bill of rights and allowing imprisonment without charges of Americans on american soil and questioning under torture and so on would likely be helpful for the government. investigations of terror plots also.

Having a data base that would enable the next Hoover to make the old Hoover look like a child is in my opinion far too must of a risk in a democracy and is an overkill and a threat to civil rights.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
sn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?

Without question however the taking in of everyone in the damn country information is overkill on it face and holding that information for how long?

Great information source for anyone who wish to follow Hoover footsteps and set up a networks of blackmail informations to help control elements of the government.

You did not dare to fired Hoover or force him to resign/retired as he knew where all the bodies was buried.

Hoover used his information/dirt to both blackmail President Kennedy and to shut down a threatened congressional investigation into President Kennedy relationship with Ellen Rometsch a woman that was consider a communist agent and Judith Campbell Exner who had connections to the mob.

Sorry Firefly I know you just hate hearing about anything that had happen more then two minutes ago however Hoover is a good example of why government bureaucrats should not have access to information on in this caase all of us.

Quote:
You're leaving out the beneficial part--which is actually the motive for the phone metadata collection--we're trying to prevent terrorist attacks, and disrupt terrorist plans,

No I am not overlooking or leaving out anything as tearing up the bill of rights and allowing imprisonment without charges of Americans on american soil and questioning under torture and so on would likely be helpful for the government. investigations of terror plots also.

Having a data base that would enable the next Hoover to make the old Hoover look like a child is in my opinion far too must of a risk in a democracy and is an overkill and a threat to civil rights.

Some people would say, "I don't care if it would mean that millions would die...my personal privacy is more important that a few million people dying.

Apparently Firefly is not one of those people.

I certainlly am not one of those people.

You apparently are.

What's the big deal...just a few million people.

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@firefly,

Quote:

Isn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?

Funny how it doesn't seem to work both ways, Firefly.

Even when US based US/CIA supported terrorists were identified, when their actions were known, when their actions were pointed out to the "authorities", the FBI, the people who did that were charged and convicted in a US kangaroo court.

I wonder why someone like yourself, with such a refined sense of justice, has never started a thread on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five

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@parados,

Sorry they have other programs such as prism that is claimed to only be looking voice and email and so on internet traffic that is from outside of the US and is just passing through our networks however they had admitted that errors happen in such programs.

They also have the capabilities to look at all such internet traffic internal and external if they care to and like the founding fathers I do not trust government officers not to misused such capabilities as that had occur any numbers of times in the past. At the cost of annoying Firefly in talking about the past when federal officers had broken federal laws to tapped communication lines I will give you examples if you wish to have them.

Not to mention little problems such as annoying our allies by examining all their citizens traffic going through our backbones and servers.

The EU is already starting to make unhappy noise about our programs of that nature.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Isn't that the point when it comes to searching for those who might be engaged in terrorist activity? If one potential terrorist is identified, might not his calling patterns lead to identifying other terrorists?

Sure. That is why the government should subpoena the terrorist's phone records and not mine.

firefly wrote:

The calling information, in metadata phone collections, is not harmful in and of itself. Who that information is revealed to, and what they do with it, is what can potentially be harmful or beneficial.

Ever notice how after you browse a couple of sites, all the ads you see start feeling like they are patterned after your searches? That's the power of metadata. Tell me who you call and let me look at who they call and pretty soon I have a really good idea of your income, your habits, your daily patterns, your medical condition, etc. It's not even all that hard. If the government has need for that data, let them prove it to a judge on a person by person basis. I see no need for them to have my data unless they can show I am a person of interest in a crime. What is completely clear from this event is that the information is in no way secure. The whistleblower in this case had access. He's not in law enforcement, he was not with the FBI. Edward Snowden was a CIA contractor. The CIA is not allowed to spy inside the US and Snowden was not even a CIA employee but he had access to the data. In the end, the government forced a company to give key, defining information about Americans to them and then they let this guy play with it? That doesn't work for me.

firefly wrote:

And, because we are searching for needles in haystacks, when looking for terrorists, we do have to examine the haystacks, which is why it may be beneficial to cast a wide-net and have wide-scale phone metadata collections. I'm not necessarily endorsing that, although I do see it as a practical necessity.

That's half way down a very slippery slope. Why not round up all the 18-29 year old Muslim males and interrogate them then let the innocent ones go? Not nearly as easy as collecting everyone's data and putting it through some algorithms, but philosophically the same.

firefly wrote:

So, I repeat--the calling information collected, in and of itself, is neither harmful nor beneficial.

Neither is a loaded gun sitting on the counter. It depends on who picks it up and what use they put it to, but the potential for harm is pretty evident.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Some people would say, "I don't care if it would mean that millions would die...my personal privacy is more important that a few million people dying.

Millions? my these terrorists are powerful indeed and one need to wonder why they would not just leave us alone and use this incredible power to take over all the nations in the middle east as not all of them together had the means of defensing themselves we do.

Let see to get up to a million you would need a large hydrogen bomb in the middle of a large population center or ten or more fission bombs also placed in the middle of population centers, See the government issue manual of the effects of nuclear weapons for more information on the subject with graphs.

Pumping up a threat model to the level of millions of citizens likely to be killed is beyond riddance.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

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What's the big deal...just a few million people.

Yet that is precisely your attitude when many more than a few million die, Frank. Your response to the crimes of Bush et al, correct me if I'm wrong, was that it wasn't a good time for the US to be prosecuting these war criminals 'cause y'all were going thru some trying times.

It's actually way way more than amazing that you bunch even have the temerity to talk about these issues.

But ya just can't get around the fact that self absorbed is self absorbed.

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