17
   

We Have No Privacy, We Are Always Being Watched.

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:29 pm
@BillRM,
Stop dragging in all sorts of irrelevant issues. You crap up, and derail, thread after thread by your inability to stay focused on the topic. Why the hell are you dragging World War I into this discussion?

It's June 14, 2013, and in a thread about a current, and still unfolding issue, you're even dragging in slavery to defend your dubious claim of being more in tune with the Constitution than the Supreme Court.

Let's stay in the present. You've been claiming that the current metadata collection of phone records is unconstitutional, something that has yet to be determined, and something that past court rulings, in similar cases, have not supported. To repeat...
Quote:
A 1979 ruling over small-scale collection of calling metadata held that such records were not protected by the Fourth Amendment privacy rights since people have revealed such information to phone companies


The issue is more that the current wide-scale phone data collection was going on without the public's awareness--and seemingly without the awareness of most members of Congress. Whether it violated the Fourth Amendment is not at all clear.

And, with regard to the data collection, it's more important that WE, as citizens, and not just you, decide how to limit potentials for abuse, and needless invasions of privacy, and decide on how much government transparency is feasible and possible, while still maintaining covert national security operations that are necessary to protect us from threat.

That you, personally, are not willing to give up any privacy, in the interests of national security, puts you in a distinct, and very tiny minority. Most people don't want to see another 9/11, or a possible biochemical attack, or a possible NYC subway bombing, or even a repeat of what happened at the Boston Marathon, and they are willing to sacrifice some personal privacy to help prevent that. But that doesn't mean they don't want to know what sort of surveillance is taking place, or that they don't want Congress to stop rubber-stamping things without asking a lot of questions and demanding satisfactory answers.

I want to know how Congress is going to address these revelations, and what they are going to propose, to allay the valid concerns that people are expressing. I can't say that your views on the Constitutionality of any of it interest me one bit.

And I particularly want to know how Congress is now going to address the Patriot Act, and if they will address it, and whether they see the need for repealing it, or severely curtailing it.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
We seems not to be on the same wave length as I agree that no matter how **** poor a SC ruling happen to be it govern whether the courts are going to protected constitutional rights or not going to protected constitutional rights.

However the court is not given the power to wipe out the ability to read the words in the bill of rights and see if the courts are or are not following the words and the spirit of that document.

The SC could indeed declared anything for example that the 13 amendment was not passed correctly and therefore the states was free to go back to placing blacks in chains.

An as you had said the constitution is anything the SC rule it is no matter how crazy the 13 amendment would no longer be part of the constitution.

Given that the courts ruling before the 13 amendment such as blacks could not be citizens would once more be the law of the land Obama would in theory be removed from the white house with chain on.

There are however limits to the power of the SC and that limit is the respect the court rulings are held in.

An example of that is President Jackson when told of the court order not to removed Indian tribes to the west stated let them enforced that ruling themselves and the tribes ended up being moved.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:49 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
An example of that is President Jackson...

The President's name is Obama, Barack Obama.

Today's date is June 14, 2013.

And we are discussing a current topical issue, and one that is still unfolding.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Most people don't want to see another 9/11, or a possible biochemical attack, or a possible NYC subway bombing, or even a repeat of what happened at the Boston Marathon,


I would not care to see any of the above events occurring however I would not wish the US to becoming a complete surveillance state even less and given the power of monitoring computer networks and putting together mountain of digit data with high speed computers that is the way we are headed at full speed.

That many billions dollars computer data center about to be turn on in Utah is not needed for what they claim they are doing and planning on doing.

It would be needed it the plan is to tapped the whole internet and record and save all traffic going over all US backbones.

With enough computer power to search that amount of traffic and find patterns.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:56 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

We seems not to be on the same wave length as I agree that no matter how **** poor a SC ruling happen to be it govern whether the courts are going to protected constitutional rights or not going to protected constitutional rights.

However the court is not given the power to wipe out the ability to read the words in the bill of rights and see if the courts are or are not following the words and the spirit of that document.

The SC could indeed declared anything for example that the 13 amendment was not passed correctly and therefore the states was free to go back to placing blacks in chains.

An as you had said the constitution is anything the SC rule it is no matter how crazy the 13 amendment would no longer be part of the constitution.

Given that the courts ruling before the 13 amendment such as blacks could not be citizens would once more be the law of the land Obama would in theory be removed from the white house with chain on.

There are however limits to the power of the SC and that limit is the respect the court rulings are held in.

An example of that is President Jackson when told of the court order not to removed Indian tribes to the west stated let them enforced that ruling themselves and the tribes ended up being moved.


I agree with your first ten words!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 04:57 pm
@firefly,
Sorry silly Firefly but understanding the past is an important key to understanding our present and to a degree our future.

With special note of knowing how very far the US government at times had gotten out of line with the ideal of living in a free society.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Spendius...why do you try so hard? Are the guys at the Pub giving you too much ****?


I'm not out of first gear. The guys at the pub fixed my fridge at half the price the experts wanted, delivered me my annual ton of cow ****, put my bets on for me, serviced my Atco lawnmower for the sheer joy of working on a class piece of engineering and laugh at my jokes. Often nervously.

Nobody has a Constitution. They are in the way of a delusion. Like a comforter which is not a tit.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Can you give me three good reasons why I should choose the latter?


1--It costs a lot less.

2--It makes more sense.

3--It's not scary.

Do you wan't a few more?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
And I admire your efforts to try to side-step the name calling and sarcasm, and put-downs, that some of the opinionators throw at you, and try to goad you into mimicking.


Aside from the last item, which Apisa couldn't manage under any provocation, you must be flipping joking.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Bill is simply wrong here.


Still marking your own exam paper I see. It sure is simple to say that Bill is simply wrong. In fact it is so simple that little kids can do it. Even in the pram.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:22 pm
@mysteryman,
I found the following for you mysteryman.......

Quote:

http://www.feldmeth.net/US/ww1civlib.html

Case #1: The American Revolution Movie
A Hollywood movie producer issued a film, The Spirit of 76, which portrayed some scenes in which British soldiers committed some atrocities.Claiming that the film questioned the faith of our ally, Great Britain, the prosecution argued that the war effort demanded total Allied support.

Case #1: The American Revolution Movie
U.S. v. Spirit of ’76The producer was fined $10,000 and given a 10-year prison sentence (later commuted to three years).
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:24 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Bill, that's twice you have mentioned that case, can you provide any sort of link to it?


I'm guessing but I think Bill is likely referring to the Japanese being put in concentration camps after Pearl Harbour.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:30 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry silly Firefly but understanding the past is an important key to understanding our present and to a degree our future.


You guys can really say the most hypocritical things, not to mention the dumbest things.

You run so fast from learning about the past, Bill, that you could surely qualify for the Daytona 500.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:31 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
'm guessing but I think Bill is likely referring to the Japanese being put in concentration camps after Pearl Harbour.


Guessing wrong as you can see from the above posting and not only did they sentence the producer of the Spirit of 76 to ten years but they seized the film.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:35 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Oh moving tens of thousands of birth right US citizens into camps due to who their ancestors happen to had been during WW2.


That one was okay, Bill, because they were just another group of darkies and at that time darkies weren't big on American white guys' lists.

Consider just how lucky they were. Normal US policy was just to slaughter dark skinned people.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 05:44 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Stop dragging in all sorts of irrelevant issues.


They are hardly irrelevant, FF. You want to think they're irrelevant so you can stay snug and secure in your little cocoon.

Quote:
That you, personally, are not willing to give up any privacy, in the interests of national security, puts you in a distinct, and very tiny minority.


Therein lies the problem. There is only a very tiny minority of thinking Americans.

How on earth do you ever expect it to stop when y'all keep murdering, torturing, raping people and stealing their daily bread?

Look at the god damn blood lust from Americans after 9-11 and you expect others, who have suffered way way way more than the US ever has, to just let things stay as they are.

How can y'all be so damn delusional? You really had better stop gobbling the propaganda and start listening to that intelligent very tiny majority.

You don't even possess the necessary courage to actually address the facts.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 06:02 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry silly Firefly but understanding the past is an important key to understanding our present and to a degree our future.

You show very little evidence of understanding the present situation. And very little interest in following it as it unfolds.

You constantly retreat into your "historical excursions", in numerous threads, when the discussion about current matters either becomes too complex for you to follow, or it fails to support whatever narrow issue you want to harp on, which is generally only tangentially related to the general discussion most of the time.
Unfortunately, that also derails threads for people actually trying to discuss the topic.

Your patronizing tone is pathetic, particularly when it's used in the service of trying to justify your particular obsessions.

I'm not sure you actually do know it's June 14, 2013.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 06:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Your patronizing tone is pathetic,



Quote:
I'm not sure you actually do know it's June 14, 2013.


Quote:
when the discussion about current matters either becomes too complex for you to follow, or it fails to support whatever narrow issue you want to harp on, which is generally only tangentially related to the general discussion most of the time.


Do you consider US terrorism to be tangential to a discussion about terrorism, Firefly?

Or are those issues just too complex, just too disconcerting, just too "I wanna stay in the ignorant majority"?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 09:27 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You constantly retreat into your "historical excursions", in numerous threads, when the discussion about current matters either becomes too complex for you to follow,


Funny given that there is little chance you have a clue of the technology the government is likely planing on using to rip our privacy away from us and most of the rest of the world beside.

Given that a large percents of the world internet traffic pass through our networks even when the sender and the receiver of the traffic have nothing to do with US not only are our government going to end up spying on our citizens but also most of the advance world citizens also.

Yes I know they are going to collected and save all that information but they are not going to search this treasure chest without permission from some rubber stamp secret court........right after spending billions repeat billions to collect and save this information in searchable formats.

Of course the government would never never lied to us even if the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper just did under oath before congress.

Oh sorry Firefly that happen all of a week of so ago so it is in the past we are not supposed to look at.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2013 10:10 pm
@firefly,
This Firefly is what I do not understand but you do....LOL



Quote:
http://lewrockwell.com/spl5/global-prism-exposed.html


Global Implications

by Marcel Rosenbach, Holger Stark, and Jonathan Stock
Spiegel Online

South of Utah's Great Salt Lake, the National Security Agency (NSA), a United States foreign intelligence service, keeps watch over one of its most expensive secrets. Here, on 100,000 square meters (1,100,000 square feet) near the US military's Camp Williams, the NSA is constructing enormous buildings to house superfast computers. All together, the project will cost around $2 billion (€1.5 billion) and the computers will be capable of storing a gigantic volume of data, at least 5 billion gigabytes. The energy needed to power the cooling system for the servers alone will cost $40 million a year.

Former NSA employees Thomas Drake and Bill Binney told SPIEGEL in March that the facility would soon store personal data on people from all over the world and keep it for decades. This includes emails, Skype conversations, Google searches, YouTube videos, Facebook posts, bank transfers – electronic data of every kind.

"They have everything about you in Utah," Drake says. "Who decides whether they look at that data? Who decides what they do with it?" Binney, a mathematician who was previously an influential analyst at the NSA, calculates that the servers are large enough to store the entirety of humanity's electronic communications for the next 100 years – and that, of course, gives his former colleagues plenty of opportunity to read along and listen in.

James Clapper, the country's director of national intelligence, has confirmed the existence of a large-scale surveillance program. President Barack Obama further explained that Congress authorized the program – but that American citizens are exempt from it.

A top-secret document published last week by the Washington Post and Britain's Guardian shows where the NSA may be getting the majority of its data. According to the document, which was allegedly leaked by former CIA employee Edward Snowden, the intelligence agency began seeking out direct access to servers belonging to American Internet companies on a wide scale in 2007. The first of these companies to come onboard was Microsoft. Yahoo followed half a year later, then Google, Facebook, PalTalk, YouTube, Skype and AOL. The most recent company to declare its willingness to cooperate was Apple, in October 2012, according to the secret government document, which proudly states that this access to data is achieved "directly from the servers" of the companies.

The companies in question denied that claim on Friday. But if what the document says is true, the NSA has the potential to know what every person in the world who uses these companies' services is doing, and that presumably includes millions of Germans.

'Total Surveillance of Germans is Inappropriate'

On Monday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel confirmed through a spokesman that she plans to discuss the NSA's controversial data surveillance program with President Obama during his visit to Berlin next week. A spokesperson for the German Justice Ministry also said that talks are currently underway with US authorities. The discussions will include implications to Germany and "possible impairment of the rights of German citizens."

German Consumer Protection Minister Ilse Aigner has called for "clear answers" from the companies implicated in the document, and the German Green Party has demanded that the government investigate the circumstances of Prism immediately.

"Total surveillance of all German citizens by the NSA is completely disproportionate," Volker Beck, secretary of the Green Party group in parliament, said on Monday. The party has proposed that the topic be discussed at next week's parliamentary session.

Mormon Roots, International Reach

The program's Utah compound is full of security fences, watchdogs and surveillance cameras, as well as biometric identification system equipment. Two informants say the location for the server facility was by no means an accident. Utah is home to the largest number of Mormons in the world. This highly patriotic religious community sends its young members around the world as missionaries – and many are then recruited by the Utah Army National Guard, whose 300th Military Intelligence Brigade employs 1,600 linguists. The NSA has access to these linguists at all times, and one insider believes they are used in "analyzing international telecommunications."

In the secret document, the NSA's surveillance program is referred to by the name "Prism." A prism is also the shape that reflects light in fiber optic cables – the same cables that form the backbone of the world's Internet traffic. The document, which was authored for an internal NSA presentation, shows that even data streams traveling from Europe to Asia, the Pacific region or South America often pass through servers in the US. "A target's phone call, email or chat will take the cheapest path, not the physically most direct path," the document reads.

The Bush administration legalized this new dimension to government snooping, but it was the Obama administration that renewed the law in question in December 2012. The law permits, for example, the surveillance of all Google users not living in the US, as well as communications between American citizens and people in other countries.

Broadened Legal Basis for Spying

The document also shows that with programs such as Prism, the NSA is reinterpreting the legal basis for its actions on one crucial point. For decades, intelligence services required an order from a special court with precise specifications on their suspect if they wanted to monitor an email account, for example. Now, it's enough if the NSA has reasonable evidence that a subject is either living abroad or communicating with someone who lives outside the US. This expands the circle of potential suspects, lowers bureaucratic hurdles and reduces democratic checks and balances, making it even easier and faster to gather data on even more people.

The NSA's data collection powers extend far beyond American Internet servers. The agency also conducts reconnaissance around the globe, for example with satellites. It has also installed high-performance antennae in various countries to pick up mobile phone communications. Never before has a government collected data on such a large scale.

The NSA is a useful partner for German authorities. The director of the NSA, four-star General Keith Alexander, regularly receives delegations from Germany at his headquarters at Fort Meade. These meetings are generally constructive, in part because the pecking order is clear: The NSA nearly always knows much more, while the Germans act as assistants. Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND, conducts various secret operations in tandem with the NSA, most of them concerning large-scale data collection. German authorities have also helped the American security agency with a number of activities, especially in regions in crisis.

Read the rest of the article

June 13, 2013

Copyright © 2013 Spiegel
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