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Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

 
 
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Sep, 2021 01:43 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Well if you have read any of my posts then the principle of perfection swapping places with imperfection “0,1 toggling” is not lost on me that’s for sure.

As we all know present day science and philosophy is solely based upon good is bad and and bad is good principles (i.e. o is 1 and 1 is 0) even though this is an ASSUMPTION as there is no definitive proof to back up this statement.

As I keep mentioning in my posts good is good and bad is bad (i.e. 0 is 0 and 1 is 1) could equally apply even though this is an ASSUMPTION as well as there is no definitive proof to back up this statement either ….that is why it could be argued that all logic combination possibilities need to be considered.

Is there a biblical statement along the lines that light shines in the dark and the dark was unable to overcome it?….I think I get that now?

0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Sep, 2021 01:59 pm
@hester831,
I can just about get my head around the idea that if there is a God then he should be able to do anything he wants whenever he wants and withhold whatever he wants from whomever he wants until a time when he chooses to reveal it.

Also,if he wants to take on flesh then,hey,fair enough that’s fine by me…who am I say that that isn’t possible.

Not sure where Mary being without sin comes into any of this though……that line of thought is not applicable in my reasonings.

NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 23 Sep, 2021 02:50 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I can just about get my head around the idea that if there is a God then he should be able to do anything he wants whenever he wants and withhold whatever he wants from whomever he wants until a time when he chooses to reveal it.

Also,if he wants to take on flesh then,hey,fair enough that’s fine by me…who am I say that that isn’t possible.

Not sure where Mary being without sin comes into any of this though……that line of thought is not applicable in my reasonings.




The question lies in how Jesus could be without sin. Protestants believe that our sin nature comes through the man (Adam).
In Catholicism the "union" of the Holy Spirit and sinless Mary produced a male without sin (Jesus).
If I am misunderstanding Catholic doctrine, please inform me someone.
hester831
 
  0  
Reply Thu 23 Sep, 2021 08:40 pm
@NealNealNeal,
There is the Original Sin of disobedience to God. And then there is personal sin in addition to this sin of Adam caused not only by our first parents but by each and every human heart that wounds the Body of Christ. Since Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin she was also able to never commit any personal sin, just the same as her son Our Lord Jesus Christ who had no Original Sin or personal sin even when tempted by the devil, the flesh, and the world.

One solution to ending all sin is to end all human existence, something many people have tried, but not something all loving and all wise God would do since the days of the Flood of Noah. We know this present world WILL BE DESTROYED again, but not by water but by fire, by direct divine intervention at some point in this final struggle between the Blessed Virgin Queen of Heaven and the enemy. No one really knows when that hour will be and if they tell you they do they are lying; only the Father in heaven knows and his Son knows HIS WILL.

This is called the hypostatic union, a Greek word describing the Second Person of the Trinity. There is only one Holy Ghost of the Son and the Father and they are the same. In his infinite wisdom God devised a means of absolving the sins of the world by ending the life of one man instead of all of them, that of his only begotten Son, and for this we return his love how?
Jasper10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 12:19 am
@hester831,
Can I ask who told you that Mary was conceived without sin?

Where have you got this idea from?

Is it in the bible? or have you or someone else for that matter just made it up?…the questions are not meant to offend…I am genuinely interested.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 02:43 am
@hester831,
hester831 wrote:


There is the Original Sin of disobedience to God. And then there is personal sin in addition to this sin of Adam caused not only by our first parents but by each and every human heart that wounds the Body of Christ. Since Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin she was also able to never commit any personal sin, just the same as her son Our Lord Jesus Christ who had no Original Sin or personal sin even when tempted by the devil, the flesh, and the world.

One solution to ending all sin is to end all human existence, something many people have tried, but not something all loving and all wise God would do since the days of the Flood of Noah. We know this present world WILL BE DESTROYED again, but not by water but by fire, by direct divine intervention at some point in this final struggle between the Blessed Virgin Queen of Heaven and the enemy. No one really knows when that hour will be and if they tell you they do they are lying; only the Father in heaven knows and his Son knows HIS WILL.

This is called the hypostatic union, a Greek word describing the Second Person of the Trinity. There is only one Holy Ghost of the Son and the Father and they are the same. In his infinite wisdom God devised a means of absolving the sins of the world by ending the life of one man instead of all of them, that of his only begotten Son, and for this we return his love how?



A "sin" is something a human does that offends the "god." The god can either forgive people who offend it...by just forgiving them...or the god can just grow up and stop being so goddam offended all the time.

To say that all humans sin is an indictment of the god...not of humans. The god apparently screwed up big time. Or at least, the myth has the god screwing up big time.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 02:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
"hypostatic". I love these conjured words. Why not just say something like "jittery", ps i looked up the word in 2 dictionaries including the OED and its not in there.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 03:28 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

"hypostatic". I love these conjured words. Why not just say something like "jittery", ps i looked up the word in 2 dictionaries including the OED and its not in there.


I'm with you on that, FM.

Anyway...Hester is trying to defend the indefensible...and that requires lots of imagination.

I have heard of the "hypostatic union" a term along the lines of "transubstantiation." Words essentially invented to give credence to absurdities necessitated by the tenets of a religion.

The "bread and wine" has to be the "body and soul of Jesus"...so "transubstantiation" is needed to make consecrated wafers "truly the body and soul of Jesus" with "just the appearance of bread and wine."

The "hypostatic union" was needed to give credence to the insistence that Jesus was both "totally human" and "totally devine."

Whatever.

It gets to the point where one has to wonder what makes the guess so important to them.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 05:55 am
@hester831,
You can usually tell a Catholic. They distort the Gospel to say stuff that it never has, and find some way to conflate what happened to Mary with an actual marriage to God.

So... Joseph, was he just some guy who followed Mary around? Not her husband, obviously. And the Catholic creeds seem to think she's a perpetual virgin for life, and that she can intercede for sins. And that she is "Mother of God." Explain to me how it is not a heresy to be Bride and Mother of God? On to one hand, you call her God's equal, on the other God's superior. A mere human.

Sorry, no.

Btw, the Bible canonically says that Mary had lots of children after Jesus. This is complete shock even to Protestants, which means Catholics have done a good job convincing people they are Christian.
Christianity branches out like a tree. And sometimes the healthiest looking branches are big and heavy, but filled with hidden rot. Islam has already proven to be a false branch, with its claims that the Trinity is some sort of polytheism and its rejection of Jesus's crucifixion. But Catholicism is also looking like it's ready to fall, along with the Unitarians and the Mormons.

The truth? Mary spent the better part of her life in fear that she might be stoned for being a whore. Mary's plight echoes Jesus's later accusation. Joseph was a good husband to her, and a good father to her children. Catholicism ignores all this to teach a works doctrine (making Jesus's death meaningless) and focuses on worship of Mary (making him a sort of subordinate creation).

But the real Gospel says in John that the Word (Jesus) was "with God in the beginning." Jesus is " begotten not made", meaning Jesus preexisted Mary and only became incarnate through her. She was not some perfect being to be worshipped. God could have chosen any woman to be mother to Jesus. She was simply a good mother, who did in fact have him as a virgin birth (Jesus has no Y chromosomes).
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 08:52 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


You can usually tell a Catholic. They distort the Gospel to say stuff that it never has, and find some way to conflate what happened to Mary with an actual marriage to God.

So... Joseph, was he just some guy who followed Mary around? Not her husband, obviously. And the Catholic creeds seem to think she's a perpetual virgin for life, and that she can intercede for sins. And that she is "Mother of God." Explain to me how it is not a heresy to be Bride and Mother of God? On to one hand, you call her God's equal, on the other God's superior. A mere human.

Sorry, no.

Btw, the Bible canonically says that Mary had lots of children after Jesus. This is complete shock even to Protestants, which means Catholics have done a good job convincing people they are Christian.
Christianity branches out like a tree. And sometimes the healthiest looking branches are big and heavy, but filled with hidden rot. Islam has already proven to be a false branch, with its claims that the Trinity is some sort of polytheism and its rejection of Jesus's crucifixion. But Catholicism is also looking like it's ready to fall, along with the Unitarians and the Mormons.

The truth? Mary spent the better part of her life in fear that she might be stoned for being a whore. Mary's plight echoes Jesus's later accusation. Joseph was a good husband to her, and a good father to her children. Catholicism ignores all this to teach a works doctrine (making Jesus's death meaningless) and focuses on worship of Mary (making him a sort of subordinate creation).

But the real Gospel says in John that the Word (Jesus) was "with God in the beginning." Jesus is " begotten not made", meaning Jesus preexisted Mary and only became incarnate through her. She was not some perfect being to be worshipped. God could have chosen any woman to be mother to Jesus. She was simply a good mother, who did in fact have him as a virgin birth (Jesus has no Y chromosomes).


You so-called Christians are a sorry lot. You'd better hope your god does not exist...especially in the form you suppose, because ALL of you are going to end up in that Hell you figure you are going to avoid.

Considering your hypocrisy, a thing Jesus supposedly abhorred, you will deserve it.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 11:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
"If you're doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing because his word don't mean ****, not with the good lord telling him how to **** you on the deal."

William S Burroughs.
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 11:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank,
You demand that God's love obliterate His holiness and righteousness. Because I am also sinful I can understand why you feel this way. However God is holy, righteous, pure, etc.
Jesus' love for people led Him to die for our sins. However it also led Him to talk several times about people who reject His gift going to hell.
I know that you don't like it but Jesus was the One who spoke the words of John 3:16-18. He is more than just a wonderful example for us to follow.
NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 12:07 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

"If you're doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing because his word don't mean ****, not with the good lord telling him how to **** you on the deal."

William S Burroughs.


Izzy,
It is strange that you quote someone of very questionable moral character.
In addition, why would you of all people quote a man who killed his wife?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 01:24 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Frank,
You demand that God's love obliterate His holiness and righteousness. Because I am also sinful I can understand why you feel this way. However God is holy, righteous, pure, etc.
Jesus' love for people led Him to die for our sins. However it also led Him to talk several times about people who reject His gift going to hell.
I know that you don't like it but Jesus was the One who spoke the words of John 3:16-18. He is more than just a wonderful example for us to follow.


The myth makes no sense, Neal.

Why are you blindly guessing that there is a god...A LOVING GOD...but also guessing that the god would require a blood sacrifice in order to "forgive" people for offending it.

Why?

Essentially you are supposing a god who would say, "Okay, you all have offended me by being human, and I am willing to forgive you for this monstrous deed. But first you have to torture and kill my son."

If you knew of a human who would do that...you would demand that the human be locked up in a mental institution.

C'mon. Wake up.
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 04:10 pm
@NealNealNeal,
The focus is all on the amazing love of Jesus.
Why would a man fall on a grenade to protect a fellow soldier? It "makes no sense" unless we understand his motivation.
As American civilians become more and more selfish we understand less and less why Jesus died for us. However, it was His love that led Him to the cross.
hester831
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Sep, 2021 04:16 pm
@Jasper10,
The Church doesn't define a dogma until it is attacked and doubted so much that it is no longer possible to tolerate such heresy threatening the salvation of souls; hence an infallible papal declaration can clear things up for the FAITHFUL.

The Church HAS ALWAYS understood the Immaculate Conception of Mary. It is revealed in the Deposit of Faith and by the Gospel writers themselves by another Greek word, kecharitomene (which is translated 'full of grace'), the unique title of the Blessed Virgin from the Angel Gabriel himself.

Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible coincidentally, and Catholics don't "worship Mary." These are public blasphemies which demand public reparation.

If you are genuinely interested in learning about the Immaculate Conception, start with reading points 270 in this section.
http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson5.htm
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Sep, 2021 01:05 am
@hester831,
Taking all things into account,I understand the need for the immaculate conception for other reasons.

As I have previously mentioned,if there is a God I am not going to be the one who limits what he can do or not do.

With all due respect though you have not answered the question I asked.Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough.

I will ask again….why do you say that Mary had no sin?….who told you that?…..have you made this up or has some one else for that matter made this up?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Sep, 2021 05:10 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:


The focus is all on the amazing love of Jesus.
Why would a man fall on a grenade to protect a fellow soldier? It "makes no sense" unless we understand his motivation.
As American civilians become more and more selfish we understand less and less why Jesus died for us. However, it was His love that led Him to the cross.


The question actually is: Why would the god who made our planet, the Sun around which we circle, the other planets in our system, the 2 -3 hundred billions of other stars in our galaxy, and the hundreds of billions of other galaxies that we know of...possibly want to forgive humans for offending it, by requiring them to first kill its son?

The myth makes less sense than almost all the other fables about gods. It makes less sense than Peter Rabbit...or any of the other talking animals stories.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Sep, 2021 05:12 am
@hester831,
hester831 wrote:


The Church doesn't define a dogma until it is attacked and doubted so much that it is no longer possible to tolerate such heresy threatening the salvation of souls; hence an infallible papal declaration can clear things up for the FAITHFUL.

The Church HAS ALWAYS understood the Immaculate Conception of Mary. It is revealed in the Deposit of Faith and by the Gospel writers themselves by another Greek word, kecharitomene (which is translated 'full of grace'), the unique title of the Blessed Virgin from the Angel Gabriel himself.

Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible coincidentally, and Catholics don't "worship Mary." These are public blasphemies which demand public reparation.

If you are genuinely interested in learning about the Immaculate Conception, start with reading points 270 in this section.
http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson5.htm


Better to read the catechism's "explanation" of why the god that Jesus worshiped feels there is nothing wrong with owning or trading in slaves.

Much better.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 25 Sep, 2021 04:41 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Taking all things into account,I understand the need for the immaculate conception for other reasons.

As I have previously mentioned,if there is a God I am not going to be the one who limits what he can do or not do.

With all due respect though you have not answered the question I asked.Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough.

I will ask again….why do you say that Mary had no sin?….who told you that?…..have you made this up or has some one else for that matter made this up?


I would imagine that it would come from Catholic tradition. However, who said that blasphemy should be punished by someone other than God. Saul did it before he became a believer (in defense of Judaism). However, as the Apostle Paul he never put anyone to death.
 

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