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What is difference between "on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder" and ...?

 
 
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 04:48 pm
What is the difference between "on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder" and "on suspicion of the conspiracy to commit the murder"?

The former looks collo and the latter formal?

Context:

U.K. police arrest 3 more men in soldier's killing

LONDON (AP) — British police on Saturday arrested three more suspects in connection with the savage killing of an off-duty soldier that has raised fresh concerns about terrorism.

Scotland Yard said counterterrorism officers arrested two men, ages 24 and 28, at a residential address in southeast London. A third man, 21, was arrested separately on a London street at the same time.

Police said they used a stun gun on two of the suspects. All three were detained on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder.
Officers have already detained several others in connection with the murder of soldier Lee Rigby, 25, who was hit with a vehicle then repeatedly stabbed with knives while walking Wednesday afternoon outside the Royal Artillery Barracks in the Woolwich, south London.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/05/25/britain-machete-attack-friend-arrested/2360267/
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View best answer, chosen by oristarA
Name Withheld
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:51 am
@oristarA,
Conspiracy to commit murder is using murder as a verb, conspiracy to commit the murder is using it as a noun. No difference in meaning at all.
oristarA
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 07:28 am
@Name Withheld,
Name Withheld wrote:

Conspiracy to commit murder is using murder as a verb, conspiracy to commit the murder is using it as a noun. No difference in meaning at all.


commit = verb
commit murder = verb + verb according to your opinion.
It does not hold water. It is a weird grammar.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 07:58 am
@Name Withheld,
Murder is a noun in both cases.

The difference is that in the first sentence, murder refers to the generic crime of murder. He is committing a crime. The crime is murder.

In the second sentence, "the murder" refers to a specific act of murder. He committed this specific crime. He committed the murder.

The phrase "conspiracy to commit murder" is rather common.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 08:03 am
@oristarA,
By the way, you can make this distinction with many nouns.

He is eating fruit (a generic statement on the type of food being eaten).
He is eating the fruit (referring to a specific piece or plate of fruit).

He wears pants.
He wears the pants of the family.




0 Replies
 
Ceili
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 08:12 am
@oristarA,
All three were detained on suspicion of the (redundant) conspiracy to commit the murder of Lee Rigby. It's fine but it needs more information than the first sentence.
"Conspiracy to commit murder" is the wording used in many jurisdictions. The "exact wording" or legal definition of the crime committed.
The law is generic but succinct. You get charged with a speeding ticket, not driving a porsche at Mach 10 - even though that is what you were doing.
If you've killed multiple times, you will be charged with four (etc) counts of homicide, not the homicides - unless you plan to fill in more details.
Suspicion to commit murder could mean you planned it or attempted to kill. If you hired a hit man, you could be tried with the above offense, whether or not you succeeded.

What does collo mean?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 09:39 am
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

What does collo mean?


I think it is Ori's home-made abbreviation for "colloquial".
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 09:59 am
@Ceili,
Collo refers to colloquial. I got it from Mr. Max
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 10:01 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Ceili wrote:

What does collo mean?


I think it is Ori's home-made abbreviation for "colloquial".



I just followed suit. So it is a mistake I mistakenly sadly learned.
Get started to forget it now.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 02:30 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
What is the difference between "on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder" and "on suspicion of the conspiracy to commit the murder"?

The former looks collo and the latter formal?


Without 'the' is both formal and collo, Ori.

We don't use 'the' because the description of the crime is not specific to one incident. It covers all potential crimes of this nature.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 08:40 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
What is the difference between "on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder" and "on suspicion of the conspiracy to commit the murder"?

The former looks collo and the latter formal?


Without 'the' is both formal and collo, Ori.

We don't use 'the' because the description of the crime is not specific to one incident. It covers all potential crimes of this nature.


But the conspiracy by the three is specific, JTT.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 10:33 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
But the conspiracy by the three is specific, JTT.


There is no conspiracy at this time. There is the suspicion of same. They were detained on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder.

I believe I can say that laws/statutes are written in a generic and formal fashion.

People are charged with breaking a law that remains general to all, that anyone could be charged with. The specifics come later.

Here are more examples. I doubt that you'll find any example using 'the' when it describes an actual law/statute

===================

Tristan Brian Arthur Stahley has been charged with one count each of first-degree murder, third-degree murder, and criminal possession of a weapon after stabbing his girlfriend, 17-year-old Julianne Siller, to death.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331440/Pennsylvania-teen-charged-murder-stabbing-17-year-old-girlfriend-death-hiking-trail-town-park.html#ixzz2USnt2Vuq

==================

He is charged with first and second-degree murder, sexual assault and burglary in the deaths of Touch Chea, 71, and his wife, Sorn Sreap, 73.

==================

Two men have been charged with endangering an aircraft after a Pakistan International Airlines passenger jet was diverted mid-flight over London

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