How is this definition of "belief"?

@Frank Apisa,

You made two assertions:

Quote:

What IS...IS.

... which is a tautology.

and then you stated:

Quote:

REALITY is objective.

Which is not a tautology at all, but an assertion we can never have conclusively verified because each our experience is subjective.
You stated it as fact, not as making a guess. Live with it.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

It must be obvous that my point of contention with Frank is not that Reality, as a physical determinant of our subjective life, is objective. I'm only arguing that that is only half of the picture. When I refer to our subjective life, including our emotions and our sensations I am talking about OUR Reality (as very different from that of germs, birds, jellyfish, extraterrestials, etc. etc.). So I am saying--ad nauseum I know--that our world is neither NOT ONLY objective nor NOT ONLY subjective. It is necessarily both. I don't see that we gain anything by making a choice.

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

I agree that the reality we perceive can meaningfully be described as both subjective and objective.

I am on a mission here, though, and the point I am making ad nausea is that this does not let us assert with certainty that there would be any reality at all without observers.
Reality may be nothing more than a subjective experience of life.

"Objective reality" is an old, old term. It is often called "absolute reality", and it is an assumption that rests on a series of other assumptions. One being that there is a difference between the thing as it is perceived by us and the thing itself.

A similar assertion is: "The food in my fridge doesn't exist when it's not being observed."

I can quote all the quantum physics I want to argue for that assertion, but the problem is such that ever finding out is beyond us. We simply cannot observe "something that is not being observed". Similarly, each of us having subjective experiences, we can not truly know that there is a foundation upon which these experiences take place, and that this foundation would still remain were all subjects somehow removed. That is what 'objective reality' means, as I understand it.

The only thing I am trying to clarify here is what the assertion "reality is objective" is. Fact, assumption, belief and so on. I say assumption. Perhaps even belief. But it is not a fact.

0 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

You are stating that reality is objective.

You are stating this as fact.

If this were a fact, then it would be true that if there were no humans, there would still be reality.

How can you know that Frank??

If the REALITY is that there would be no REALITY if there were no humans...THEN THAT WOULD BE THE REALITY.

That is simply as true as WHAT IS...IS.

Quote:

I don't care how likely it seems to you. You can not KNOW it.

I CA N KNOW THAT WHAT IS...IS because it is a tautology. So I can know that whatever IS...simply IS.

Quote:

What's more, Frank, you are not making a guess here.

So much for "not doing beliefs"...

I do not have beliefs...and I am not making a guess. I am simply presenting a tautology.

Try to keep under control, Cyracuz. The fact is that WHATEVER REALITY IS...it is.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

You made two assertions:

Quote:
What IS...IS.

... which is a tautology.

and then you stated:

Quote:
REALITY is objective.

Which is not a tautology at all, but an assertion we can never have conclusively verified because each our experience is subjective.
You stated it as fact, not as making a guess. Live with it.

REALITY...IS WHAT IS. So...WHAT IS...IS...therefore REALITY IS WHAT IS...and is objective.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

It must be obvous that my point of contention with Frank is not that Reality, as a physical determinant of our subjective life, is objective. I'm only arguing that that is only half of the picture. When I refer to our subjective life, including our emotions and our sensations I am talking about OUR Reality (as very different from that of germs, birds, jellyfish, extraterrestials, etc. etc.). So I am saying--ad nauseum I know--that our world is neither NOT ONLY objective nor NOT ONLY subjective. It is necessarily both. I don't see that we gain anything by making a choice.

IF THAT IS ALL TRUE, JL...that is the REALITY. It is what is.

And since what IS...IS...it is objective, not subjective.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Well, apparently, you have one belief.

You just made an assertion about reality, claiming it is a tautology, when in fact it is an assumption based on a tautology.

You must be acting willfully dense, because I know for a fact you are smarter than this.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Well, apparently, you have one belief.

You just made an assertion about reality, claiming it is a tautology, when in fact it is an assumption based on a tautology.

You must be acting willfully dense, because I know for a fact you are smarter than this.

I have no beliefs.

I have explained my position clearly.

You are blocking it for whatever reasons you are blocking it.

I have not made any assumptions or assertions about REALTY except that whatever IS...IS.

Continue to fight it if it pleases you.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

There is nothing subjective in a tautology to which everyone agrees...

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank it seams to me people sometimes don't get the implications they are accepting from a simple tautology...perhaps they don't understand what granting a tautology is implying... Very Happy

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

There is nothing subjective in a tautology to which everyone agrees...

I know. I wish Cyracuz and JL could finally get that.

They can't seem to understand that even if EVERY ASSUMPTION they are making about REALITY...EVERY POSSIBILITY they are raising about REALITY...were true...

...that would be the OBJECTIVE TRUTH about REALITY.

Whatever IS...IS. No matter what it is.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

When someone says reality is reality, or that, whatever is is, they are not adding on jot of information about what is being...by accepting the term "reality" they cannot contradict and aim to any subjectivity in the term they just accepted without pointing to some descriptive information about the object...by nature tautology's are not descriptive...they present ZERO information about the object and the object was already granted in abstract as real ! That has been my point all along here, but I rather talk with you...I don't want to loose my temper with Cyr or JL because bottom line they are good people and I am making an effort to keep it cool...sometimes I will just step back n let it sink in...I am sure you will understand why I rather do so...

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

...that would be the OBJECTIVE TRUTH about REALITY.

No. That would be the TRUTH about reality. If you want to include OBJECTIVE it is no longer a tautology.

You may wish to define it so it is, but "objective reality" is an old, old phrase. It's meaning is well established.
It refers to the reality beyond our senses; something we can never have definite knowledge about through our senses.

There is some excuse for Fil, Frank. His level of accuracy is hindered by his comprehension of the language. You, however, show high mastery of the language, and this should not be hard to grasp for you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

And since what IS...IS...it is objective, not subjective.

Do you not see that this assertion excludes the possibility that reality is a phenomenon that exists entirely within the subject/object relationship?

If that is the case, reality is not objective. In that case, reality is not anything unless subjectively experienced.

This means that there is reasonable doubt to be cast on the assertion "reality is objective", which means it is not a tautology. It is not a fact.

The assertion "REALITY IS".... That is a tautology.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

There is a distinction to be made in saying that whatever reality is, is itself objective once is, then by saying our experience itself needs be objective, it needs not !
When we say something is objective we simply saying that something is exactly that object and not something else...so long we don't describe that object we are being objective ! Wink

2 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Frank it seams to me people sometimes don't get the implications they are accepting from a simple tautology...perhaps they don't understand what granting a tautology is implying...

Perhaps they understand the difference between a tautology and an assumption.
What Frank is on about now is not a tautology.

0 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

When we say something is objective we simply saying that something is exactly that object and not something else...so long we don't describe that object we are being objective !

This is some ad hoc definition cooked up by you, to serve your needs at the moment. That doesn't at all reflect what the phrase "objective reality" means.

This isn't a whole lot better than when you tried to say that "no matter what we can know about it" refers to a thing within a thing.
That certainly clarifies things... Only a proper fool would seek to account for ambiguity by adding more ambiguity.

There is a word for what you are doing, Fil. Mindfuck. Luckily, your arguments are to weak to harm much more than your own understanding.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Frank is saying that the tautology is objective which it is because the predicate refers back to the subject so where is the potential variance in meaning to assert subjectivity ?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

What you CAN SAY ABOUT reality by definition IS a SET of property's which are a proper SUBSET of the thing itself. A thing within a thing. That of course grants objectively that reality is reality whatever the description might be...which in turn is to mean the description is irrelevant for that to be true that reality is reality ! There is Zero information in the sentence from where one might assert subjectivity. We have agreed to a term not explained it...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Lol

Even if Frank had been saying that the tautology "reality IS" is objective, that is a different assertion than "reality is objective".

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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