How is this definition of "belief"?

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Well, maybe for these specific examples but not for the belief in God. That's more than a working hypothesis.

Remember the context of the thread. In his original post, Cyracuz had suggested a definition of the term "belief" that he thought was generally-applicable. To reject his suggestion as idiosyncratic and inconsistent with common usage, all I need is one counterexample. That's one example of something that fits his definition without being a belief. I provided three.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Remember the context of the thread. In his original post, Cyracuz had suggested a definition of the term "belief" that he thought was generally-applicable. To reject his suggestion as idiosyncratic and inconsistent with common usage, all I need is one counterexample. That's one example of something that fits his definition without being a belief. I provided three.

Ok. Let's go back to the definition Cyracus offered though, cause I still think it has merit:

Quote:

Belief - a conceptual frame in which an individual arranges his perceptions.

What I would like to emphasize in the "in which". Indeed, people are "in" a belief, almost like in a conceptual prison beyond which they can't reason clearly. The framework defines or orient what they can see.

A working hypothesis has all the attribute of a belief but the person using it is not "in it". Rather that person is using a tool, which he or she can drop for another at any time.

So the definition of a working hypothesis could be: a conceptual frame which an individual uses to arrange his perceptions.

Cyracus' definition could IMO be reenforced as follows: element of a conceptual framework considered true, yet unproven and often unprovable, in which an individual arranges his perceptions.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Basically yes, minus the "and for others . . ." part. As far as I know, practically noone believes that the selfish gene in biology, homo oeconomicus in economics, or "transistor man" in electronics are anything more than useful metaphors.

Well, maybe for these specific examples but not for the belief in God. That's more than a working hypothesis.

What is more than a working hypothesis?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
There has been a heavy price paid by everyone, everywhere since history first started being recorded...and there is today. Look around...read the newspapers. You will see that there is a cost being paid in France as well as where I am.

Like what? Could you be more specific? Political Islam? Anti-abortionists? Wars?

Yes to all of those things. Stop being coy. Are there any stories in the French newspapers about any place in the world where trouble is happening because of differences in "beliefs?"

I am suggesting that if we all got to the point where we were arguing about guesses...less trouble would happen, because we would see how silly it is to kill each other over guesses.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I am suggesting that if we all got to the point where we were arguing about guesses...less trouble would happen, because we would see how silly it is to kill each other over guesses.

Okay, although we'd probably find something else to fight about. Already, religion is often used as an excuse for other motives.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I am suggesting that if we all got to the point where we were arguing about guesses...less trouble would happen, because we would see how silly it is to kill each other over guesses.

Okay, although we'd probably find something else to fight about. Already, religion is often used as an excuse for other motives.

I'm not suggesting we will eliminate fighting. But it does seem to me that we are less likely to fight over "my guess is there are ten angels that can dance on the head of a pin vs. my guess is there are 20!"

Yes, other factors figure into our many wars and arguments, but religion has been a staunch stand-by. My opinion is we would be better off without it...but I get that some religion provides positive motivations. But pointing out that guesses are guesses...could make a difference.

I appreciate that you may disagree.

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I'm all for taking religion much less seriously. In fact it makes for excellent satire material. The Mohamad cartoons did more than many fighter jets.

Pope Benedict resigned so he could at last support the Paris Saint Germain Football Club, or because he wanted to sing with Village People, or because he wants to mary in Versailles with his life-long boyfriend.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

That certainly seems to be the game some are playing here.

In any case, as regards "beliefs" in the context to which I keep returning....they are guesses...and the use of "beliefs" really does seem to be a disguise. It does not seem an accident...because people making these kinds of guesses truly want their guesses to be given special consideration and respect.

Indeed.
"I believe the Saints will win the Superbowl."
"I believe I'll have another beer."
"I believe in honesty."
"I believe in ghosts."

Equating the content of each of these statements merely because they use the same verb seems at the very least to be sloppy thinking.

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Have you noticed that some politicians say "I believe" rather than "I think" in their speeches? This was very characteristic of JFK's speeches.
In so doing they seem to take on an almost religious tone in asserting their goals and values.

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@JLNobody,

I hadn't thought about it, but I'll keep an ear out for it now.

By the way, when I made those sample sentences above, I was not attributing them to anyone. Just examples that popped into my head.

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Jesus, pages of this feeble-minded bullshit. To guess and to believe are not synonymous.

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@FBM,

I think the distinction between belief and knowledge is sufficient...debating smaller distinctions between greater or smaller degrees of assumptions sounds like serving the specific context of those who have an agenda and something to preach about...
(Not saying this is your case)

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Jesus, pages of this feeble-minded bullshit. To guess and to believe are not synonymous.

A guess if not entirely random imply s some form of assumption...its a belief ! Debating the degree of confidence is just an excuse to clean the mess of your pathetic comments earlier on... so with all do respect go f* yourself !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Could be for some/many, I suppose, but for good or ill, that sort of thing occupies a lot of the time spent in Philosophy classrooms. It does get old sometimes.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I am suggesting that if we all got to the point where we were arguing about guesses...less trouble would happen, because we would see how silly it is to kill each other over guesses.

Okay, although we'd probably find something else to fight about. Already, religion is often used as an excuse for other motives.

Obviously...confusing the trigger with the cause is a convenient excuse...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

My point is that guess is not a synonym of belief. I wasn't talking to you, about you or for your benefit, so with no respect at all, go **** your mother because i suspect no one else will have you.

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The number one "google" hit for guess:

Verb
Estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.
Noun
An estimate or conjecture.
Synonyms
verb. conjecture - suppose - think - surmise - reckon - imagine
noun. conjecture - surmise - supposition - assumption

The number one "google" hit for belief:

Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Synonyms
faith - trust - confidence - persuasion - credence

While some beliefs may just be guesses, not all beliefs are axiomatically guesses. If i believe that cross traffic will stop at an intersection i'm approaching when i have a green light, that is a belief for which there is a good reason--experience and the not unwarranted supposition that other drivers will obey traffic regulations. It is not an estimate without sufficient information to be sure of being correct, and in fact is an estimate based on sound reasoning and information supplied by experience.

This false guess/belief dichotomy was created by Frank a few years ago when he actually had the courage to take on several people in a debate, and he was getting hammered. He then had what he thought was a bright idea, and started using guess rather than belief and claiming that he doesn't "do" belief.

Not everything is about you, Fil, you foul-mouthed, hateful son of a bitch.

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@Setanta,

Unless your Alzheimer is getting worse you idiot you should well know what post I am referring to...quote the damn goggle hits as much as you want, guesses strict sense are or should be seen as random assertions without any biases otherwise they need to portray to some extent a greater or lesser degree of assumptions, ultimately they presuppose some form of belief, the degree of confidence is irrelevant as is irrelevant if your belief is sometimes subjected to potential doubt ! You may well develop a thesis on how dumb and smart people reason about their own beliefs but that is an entirely different matter.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

**** you, you loud-mouthed would be bully. You are such a rambling idiot, that i don't even read your posts unless you are specifically responding to me. So i don't give a rat's ass what post you are referring to. You badly need to growup.

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@Setanta,

...you are nothing but a pseudo intellectual with pretensions to a would be annalist your entire childish discourse on Buddhism and Religion at large shows the degree of mediocrity on which you fool yourself...good memory and writing correctly on your mother tongue doesn't even make you a good Historian you pathetic clown ! Get lost and get some pills you schizophrenic old fart !

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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