3
   

Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming, we're finally on our own... .

 
 
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 06:12 am
The deaths at Kent State did not ignite an armed conflict against authorities in the USA.

Why not?

Joe(I've always wondered... .)Nation
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 06:16 am
@Joe Nation,
'Cause as shocking as it was, most people went home to comfortable beds, were still able to go to work, pay the rent and feed their kids. The deaths of a few kids wasn't enough to persuade them to give it all up.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 08:20 am
Kent State seems to me to be one of the events that helped deflate the Peace Movement. It's fun to challenge the system, until it becomes so dangerous. Other factors, the "Peace Generation" had to find jobs to survive. Nixon actually helped foment the violence at demonstrations, helping to give the movement a bad image. The Weathermen. The war rejuvenated and expanded by Nixon. Suddenly activists were environmentalists, all but diehards and the Veterans Against the War.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 09:09 am
The thing you have to keep reminding yourself of regarding VietNam is that Ike stood right there on the dias at JFK's inauguration and specifically warned him that the very last thing he wanted to do was get involved in any sort of an Asian land war.

VietNam was an archetypal demoKKKrat war. Two demoKKKrat presidents started it, and a demoKKKrat congress refused to allow two presidents to prosecute it in a rational manner once it WAS started.

Ike: "Peace, Progress, Prosperity".
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 09:45 am
@Joe Nation,
In his book about the Kent State affair, Michener, an appallingly credulous author (it's hilarious the BS the hippies fed him, which he swallowed whole), he employed graduate students to interview students--a wise move. Again and again and again, in hundreds of interviews, students related how, after their universities were closed (hundreds were), they came home to parents who not only approved of the shootings, but who told their children that if they (the children) were in such a demonstration, they (the parents) would not be upset at the shooting.

Which demonstrates just how little people know of events. Of the four killed and the nine wounded, not a one of them had taken part in the anti-ROTC demonstrations. But whether or not they had, attitudes were hardening by then. More than anything else, the Weather Underground had screwed the student protest movement. The generation gap was not something which the press had manufactured, it was real, it was deep and it was acrimonious. Having destroyed the SDS, the Weather Underground then perpetrated the Haymarket bombing in Chicago, the so-called "Days of Rage," the Park Precinct bombing in San Francisco, the arson attack on a judge's residence in New York and the premature explosion of a nail bomb in a "safe house" in New York. When, three months after Kent State, a bomb at the University of Wisconsin killed one researcher and maimed another, and the Weather Underground denied any involvement, most people didn't believe them (although the evidence is that they were not involved). They then adopted a policy of attacking property and not people, but it was too late for the image of the student anti-war movement.

At the time John Kennedy was inaugurated, the idea of military escalation in southeast Asia was not even on the horizon. Kennedy was dead and buried by the time that Robert MacNamara manufactured the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was the justification for escalation--he admitted as much before his death. As a matter of fact, both Truman and Eisenhower sent military advisers to South Vietnam. After the defeat and withdrawal of the French, Eisenhower steadily increased the number of U.S. personnel from about 900 to over 15,000. Eisenhower was, however, someone who could and did learn from his mistakes. So, for example, having been suckered by the coup in Iran in 1953, he refused to support England and France in the seizure of the Suez Canal in 1956. He warned Israel to pull out of the Sinai or face loss of all American aid. (Presidents cannot give other nations aid, only Congress can do that--but a President can sit on it, he's the paymasters. The Israelis knew that and they pulled out of the Sinai a hell of a lot faster than they went in.)

This is a thought process which is entirely alien to Gunga Dim. The evidence of his posting here is that he never learns anything, and that he knows nothing about history. His remarks are always a product of his reactionary polemic. Dog forbid that he actually made a good faith effort to learn a subject as complex and detailed as history. That's an event far less likely than that one would hear the truth reported in good faith by his reactionary pundit heroes at Fox News.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 09:57 am
Kent State is still being investigated. I read the following on a website this morning. I don't claim the quoted statement that follows here to be the truth. There is a lot of ideology based argument and apparent government censorship of much information.

(quote) In recently discovered film of the Kent State Shooting in 1970 (1:07.40 thru 1:08), FBI informant provocateur Terry Norman (photo at top) is the young man in the light colored sports jacket. Earlier that day Norman's mentor, Detective Tom Kelly from the Kent Police had attempted to have Norman's gun approved for carrying on campus during the demonstrations, but that approval never came so it's KEY that the video clearly shows Norman handing over his gun to Detective Kelly.

From forensic evidence expert Stuart Allen's analyses of the Kent State Tape in 2010, we learned that Norman shot that weapon at the May 4th demonstration as he was attacked & beat-up by students who saw his gun. (More on Terry Norman ~ Does Terry Norman Hold the Key to Kent State?.)

Watching these Kent State videos without sound, Norman's gun hand-off coupled with the post-Kent State Tape analysis, we now understand the importance of this interaction caught on video & at many other sources.

Norman's pistol 'created the sound of sniper fire.'

Here is the full presentation:
http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2013/05/more-kent-state-ohio-massacre-coverup.html
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 10:57 am
I highly recommend Michener's book. It was obviously carefully researched (largely, i suspect, by the graduate students he employed.) It is also very entertaining. Michener is incredibly gullible. At one point, he confidently states that he had met "X" number of Davey Crocketts and "Y" number of Daniel Boones on Water Street in Kent, Ohio, on a Friday night. I can just see this geeky white boy with the black, plastic frame glasses, in an early 1960s suit with the skinny lapels, wearing a sknny early 1960s tie, walking up to guys on the street wearing fringed leather jackets, and asking them: "Who are you supposed to be?" (assuming it's a costume rather than just an item of clothing they like). "I"m Davey Crockett . . . Man." or "I'm Daniel Boone . . . Man."

At another point, he confidently states that "all hippie communes have a large African drum." Some students had taken him to their house, so that he could see an honest to god hippie commune. I suspect it was the typical dilapidated student house, where as many people had packed in as possible to share the rent. Walking into the house, Michener sees a large drum by the door and inquires about it. Once again, you can just hear the dialogue. "What's that?" First "hippie": "That, uh . . . it's a large African drum . . . Man." Second "hippie": "Oh yeah, all the hippies communes have a large African drum . . . Man." A very entertaining book in an unintentional kind of way.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 05:09 pm
I should mention this....

If JFK had lived, that is, if LBJ and Ed Clark hadn't croaked him, the good betting odds are that he would in fact have figured VietNam out and shut the whole thing down before any large numbers of American lives and large sums of treasure had been expended on it. JFK was the last real democrat go get near the whitehouse and he would certainly be a Republican in today's world. The little "Ask not, what your country can do for you" thing would go over like a lead baloon amongst today's libtards and demoKKKrats.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 08:39 am
@Setanta,
I absolutely agree with your comments about the Weather Underground. The Peace Movement after Kent State was putting hundreds of thousands of peaceful, non-violent anti-war protesters on the streets. Pressure was building to get the USA to withdraw from Southeast Asia.
Then, the bombs started to go off.
The movement got tainted by those maniacs.

Joe(i've never forgiven them)Nation
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 08:54 am
@Joe Nation,
Yeah, well that was one part of my answer to the question of why there wasn't armed conflict with authority--the part which explains why most people weren't outraged at authority, but rather, blamed the kids who were being shot at.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 11:53 am
Oh, I recognize that it's a complex issue and that your post covered many, if not all, of them. It's just that the bombings of Weathermen resonated with me because at the time (1970?) I was working with about seven different denominations to create a Day for Peace in Texas.
Almost as soon as the dust cleared in Chicago and especially after the explosion in Greenwich Village, church support evaporated. Then came Kent State and our little group of non-violent people were 'finally on our own.'

We turned it into an Arts Festival. meh.

Joe(thank for your perspective)Nation
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 May, 2013 12:57 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Almost as soon as the dust cleared in Chicago and especially after the explosion in Greenwich Village, church support evaporated. Then came Kent State and our little group of non-violent people were 'finally on our own.'


Yup . . . that's exactly what i was trying to get across.

I used to really resent Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young because of that song. Those rich fat cat heroes of the music business weren't in the line of fire. Soldiers weren't cutting them down. (I don't say it was rational--emotions usually aren't.)
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 11:54 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Soldiers weren't cutting them down.


They were too busy mowing down Vietnamese civilians. Say, weren't you in Vietnam, Set? Aren't you the guy that tries to defend that monumental series of war crimes?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 11:57 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
The deaths at Kent State did not ignite an armed conflict against authorities in the USA.

Why not?


You're all sheeple, Joe.

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people,"

Has there ever been a more monstrous joke played on so many people?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 12:14 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
The thing you have to keep reminding yourself of regarding VietNam is that Ike stood right there on the dias at JFK's inauguration and specifically warned him that the very last thing he wanted to do was get involved in any sort of an Asian land war.

VietNam was an archetypal demoKKKrat war. Two demoKKKrat presidents started it, and a demoKKKrat congress refused to allow two presidents to prosecute it in a rational manner once it WAS started.



Why vote Gunga down? Though he is a bald faced liar, he's certainly not anymore of a liar than the rest of you, including you silent ones.

Quote:
U.S. intelligence officers worked over Vietnam for a total of 25 years, with greater and greater involvement, massive propaganda, deceiving the American people about what was happening. Panicking people in Vietnam to create migrations to the south so they could photograph it and show how people were fleeing communism. And on and on, until they got us into the Vietnam war, and 2,000,000 people were killed.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html


That 25 years certainly covers Eisenhower's time in office. His actions against the people of Vietnam were evil incarnate. But one can't be too hard on Ike for as US presidents go, it's par for the course.

Quote:
US Involvement in Vietnam: the first turning point

...

Owing to the fact that it was Johnson who sent in the ground troops in 1965, the Vietnam War became known as ‘Johnson’s war’. The dubious nature of that attribution is implicitly acknowledged by historians who favour the ‘commitment trap’ thesis. According to this interpretation, Johnson of necessity honoured and then built upon a commitment bequeathed to him by three former presidents, Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy. An exit from that commitment would have damaged US credibility as an anti-Communist superpower.

Was there any point at which any of Johnson's three predecessors could reasonably have ended US involvement in Vietnam?

Harry Truman initiated the US involvement. From 1950 to 1953, he gave financial aid to the French colonialists as they struggled to re-establish control of Indochina in the face of opposition from Vietnamese Communists and nationalists. It could be argued that, up to 1953, the United States' commitment was simply a financial commitment to its French ally. On the other hand, as early as November 1950, a Defence Department official warned,

we are gradually increasing our stake in the outcome of the struggle ... we are dangerously close to the point of being so deeply committed that we may find ourselves completely committed even to direct intervention. These situations, unfortunately, have a way of snowballing.

In the early months of his presidency, Eisenhower continued Truman's policy of helping the French, but after the Geneva Conference of 1954, the great turning point in the US commitment occurred. Prior to 1954, US involvement in Vietnam had consisted of giving materials and monetary aid to the French. During 1954 the Eisenhower administration switched from a policy of aid to France to an experiment in state-building in what became known as South Vietnam.

By 1954 the war in Vietnam had become increasingly unpopular in France. The defeat of French troops by Communist forces at Dienbienphu left France exhausted, exasperated and keen to withdraw. At the international conference convened to discuss French Indochina at Geneva in May 1954, the French exit was formalised. Vietnam was temporarily divided, with Ho Chi Minh in control of the north and the Emperor Bao Dai in control of the south. The Geneva Accords declared that there were to be nationwide elections leading to reunification of Vietnam in 1956. However, US intervention ensured that this ‘temporary division’ was to last for more than 20 years.

The United States refused to sign the Geneva Accords and moved to defy them within weeks. Eisenhower's Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, organised allies such as Britain in the South-east Asia Treaty Organisation (SEATO). The SEATO signatories agreed to protect South Vietnam, in defiance of the Geneva Accords, which had forbidden the Vietnamese from entering into foreign alliances or to allow foreign troops in Vietnam.

The Eisenhower administration encouraged Bao Dai to appoint Ngo Dinh Diem as his prime minister, and then proceeded to engage in ‘nation building’. Eisenhower and Dulles created a new state, in defiance (yet again) of the Geneva Accords and of what was known to be the will of the Vietnamese people. Eisenhower recorded in his memoirs that he knew that if there had been genuine democratic elections in Vietnam in 1956, Ho Chi Minh would have won around 80 per cent of the vote. In order to avoid a wholly Communist Vietnam, the US had sponsored an artificial political creation, the state of South Vietnam.

Within weeks of Geneva, Eisenhower arranged to help Diem set up South Vietnam. He sent General ‘Lightning Joe’ Collins and created MAAG (the Military Assistance Advisory Group) to assist in the process. The US also helped and encouraged Diem to squeeze out Bao Dai.

The French exit meant that Eisenhower could have dropped Truman's commitment in Vietnam. Truman had aided the French, and the French had got out. American credibility was not at stake, for it was the French who had lost the struggle. However, the French withdrawal from Vietnam was seen by Dulles as a great opportunity for greater US involvement. ‘We have a clean base there now, without the faint taint of colonialism,’ said Dulles, calling Dienbienphu ‘a blessing in disguise’. When the Eisenhower administration created South Vietnam, Truman's commitment had not been renewed but recreated, with a far greater degree of American responsibility.

American observers and the Eisenhower administration had great doubts about Diem's regime. Vice President Richard Nixon was convinced the South Vietnamese lacked the ability to govern themselves. Even Dulles admitted that the US supported Diem ‘because we knew of no one better’.

‘Magnificently ignorant of Vietnamese history and culture,’ according to his biographer Townsend Hoopes, Dulles proceeded to ignore the popularity of Ho Chi Minh and Vietnamese desires, in favour of the unpopular Diem, a member of the Christian minority in a predominantly Buddhist country. Back in 1941, Dulles had said that ‘the great trouble with the world today is that there are too few Christians’. In the East Asian despots (Chiang Kai-shek in Taiwan, Syngman Rhee in South Korea, and Ngo Dinh Diem in South Vietnam), all of whom were Christian, the US had found men with whom it felt it could work. After all, as Dulles said, the US had Jesus Christ on its side, and needed allies who believed likewise.

The Eisenhower administration was well aware of Ho Chi Minh's popularity. However, it was not Vietnam itself that mattered, but Vietnam's position as a potential domino in the Cold War. In the 1954 speech in which he had introduced his famous ‘domino theory’, Eisenhower had said that if Vietnam fell to Communism, other nations might follow.

Given that the US came very close to dumping Diem in 1955-6, it is interesting to note the important role played by relatively minor and/or ignorant American figures in Diem's survival and in this great turning point in US involvement in Vietnam. Influential Senator Mike Mansfield, leader of the Democrats in the Senate, had been a professor of Japanese and Chinese history. Congress considered ‘China Mike’ to be their expert on Vietnam, although, as he modestly admitted, ‘I do not know too much about the Indochina situation. I do not think that anyone does.’ Despite his acknowledged ignorance, the Catholic Mansfield had been greatly impressed when he met Diem in the United States in 1950. Mansfield's support was vital when the Eisenhower administration considered dropping Diem in 1955. Eisenhower and Dulles did not want to incur congressional wrath by deserting the senator's protégé.

In A Bright Shining Lie, journalist Neil Sheehan opined: ‘South Vietnam, it can truly be said, was the creation of Edward Lansdale.’ Dulles sent covert CIA operative Lansdale to help create the South Vietnamese state soon after the Geneva Conference. Lansdale gave Diem support and advice, including a memo headed, ‘HOW TO BE A PRIME MINISTER OF VIETNAM’. British novelist Graham Greene based a destructive American do-gooder character in his novel The Quiet American on Lansdale. Lansdale, like Mansfield, lacked any real understanding of Vietnam.

Despite all the doubts, the Eisenhower administration stuck with Diem. By the end of Eisenhower's presidency, there were nearly 1,000 US advisers helping Diem and his armed forces. Under President Kennedy, the number of advisers rocketed to around 16,000, which renders suspect claims that, had he lived, Kennedy would have got out of Vietnam.

Some historians consider that Kennedy had a last, great opportunity to extricate the US from Vietnam in 1963. Johnson felt that when the Kennedy administration colluded in the autumn 1963 coup against Diem, the United States' moral responsibility in and commitment to Vietnam greatly increased. Having helped depose one South Vietnamese leader, the US had an even greater obligation to support his successors. The US colluded in Diem's overthrow because of the unpopularity of his government and its consequent ineffectiveness in opposing Communism in South Vietnam. In the spring of 1963, the American media had covered the Buddhist protests in South Vietnamese cities such as Saigon. Americans had been shocked to see Buddhist monks burning themselves to death in protest against the oppressive regime of the Catholic Diem. The US had urged Diem to halt the religious persecution. It could be argued, therefore, that when Diem ignored American advice that he should reform, the US had a great opportunity to exit Vietnam without losing face or credibility. On the other hand, Diem had ignored American warnings to introduce reform for almost a decade. Any sudden US rejection of Diem and ending of the US commitment in 1963 might have raised questions as to why the US had supported Diem's unsatisfactory regime for so long.

In the context of the Cold War and with 16,000 American ‘advisers’ in Vietnam at his accession in 1963, it was exceptionally difficult for Johnson to repudiate his predecessors' legacy in Vietnam, particularly as he had not been elected president in his own right. The increasing vulnerability of American personnel to Vietcong attack triggered a unanimous decision within the Johnson administration to escalate the involvement in early 1965, when Rolling Thunder commenced and the first American ground troops were sent in. By 1968, they numbered around half a million.

While it could be argued that Kennedy had the opportunity to leave Vietnam in 1963, it is difficult to find a date at which it could be argued that Johnson had a similar opportunity. In defence of Kennedy, the US had invested nearly a decade of monetary aid, men and materials in the Saigon regime by 1963. Most importantly of all, the US had invested its credibility in ‘nation building’ – something that had not been the case under Truman or until Eisenhower rejected the Geneva Accords in 1954. According to historian David Anderson, writing in 2005, ‘the Eisenhower administration trapped itself and its successors into a commitment to the survival of its own counterfeit creation’, the new ‘state’ of South Vietnam.

Thus Eisenhower's rejection of the Geneva Accords and his ‘nation building’ in South Vietnam constituted the greatest turning point in the US involvement in Vietnam, the point of no return. This turning point is a microcosm of the reasons why the US got involved and why the US was unsuccessful in Vietnam. That small country was not seen as a nation in its own right and with its own aspirations. Instead it was seen, after the Korean War, as the place where Communism had to be stopped. Vietnam was a victim of the Cold War. American policy-makers acted with little understanding of the country and forced unpopular and unimpressive rulers upon half of it for nearly two decades.

http://www.historytoday.com/viv-sanders/turning-points-vietnam-war
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 02:13 pm
@Setanta,
Edgar posts this link,

http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2013/05/more-kent-state-ohio-massacre-coverup.html

and Setanta informs us of the presence of a squirrel.

How come you haven't commented on the info in that link, Joe(I was once a guy with cojones)Nation?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 02:20 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Those rich fat cat heroes of the music business weren't in the line of fire. Soldiers weren't cutting them down.


Setanta: Oh look, another squirrel!!

Funny, I've never heard you advance this specious notion about any other protest song, Set.

Odd that it comes after Edgar links to that valuable information.

YessireeBob, you are quite the historian!!
0 Replies
 
 

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