11
   

Fellow Bostonians: How many of us wished we had an assault weapon last night?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:29 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Germany once more was broken up into all kind of independent or semi-independent "states" very late in history including some city states.
Until today, actually.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Once more there was no nation state of Germany until very late in history and to claimed otherwise is similar to claiming the 13 colonies of north american was a nation before the revolution and the Articles of confederation and then the Constitution.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Don't get upset about the BillRM's on a2k; they are ignorant of facts and history. What he doesn't understand is that when the Germans came to the US, they brought with them the arts, education, and foods. They were one of the largest migrants to the US.

BTW, even today, they are one of the largest visitors to the US.

There's no cure f..........
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:39 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Once more there was no nation state of Germany until very late in history and to claimed otherwise is similar to claiming the 13 colonies of north american was a nation before the revolution and the Articles of confederation and then the Constitution.
I'm trying to be calm, Bill. And to explain that "nation" isn't always that, what it is in the USA.

We all all German nationals, have it been at least since the the times of the "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation".
A citizen of the foremer Principality of Lippe belonged to the German nation as does a citizen of the Hanseatic City Hamburg (state) nowadays.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I vaguely remember something about Germans being in Croatia long time ago, but I learned that during my first visit to Croatia about 25 years ago.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:43 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Don't get upset about the BillRM's on a2k; they are ignorant of facts and history. What he doesn't understand is that when the Germans came to the US, they brought with them the arts, education, and foods. They were one of the largest migrants to the US.


What does the above have to do with whether Germany existed as a nation state under the common meaning of that term until very late in world history?

PS from what I know of my family tree I have German blood in my vein myself and I could have had ancestors in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest that wiped out three Roman legions.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:45 am
@BillRM,
If you don't understand more recent German history, how can you possible speak with authority about Germany? Walter studied history. I'll believe him long before I believe you about Germany - or most anything else.

I've challenged you on many things - and not only about history.

Your ignorance is almost universal!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I'm trying to be calm, Bill. And to explain that "nation" isn't always that, what it is in the USA.


Nation and nation state have a common meaning.........

Quote:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany

The formal unification of Germany into a politically and administratively integrated nation state officially occurred on 18 January 1871 at the Versailles Palace's Hall of Mirrors in France. Princes of the German states gathered there to proclaim Wilhelm of Prussia as Emperor Wilhelm of the German Empire after the French capitulation in the Franco-Prussian War. Unofficially, the transition of most of the German-speaking populations into a federated organization of states occurred over nearly a century of experimentation. Unification exposed several glaring religious, linguistic, social, and cultural differences between and among the inhabitants of the new nation, suggesting that 1871 only represents one moment in a continuum of the larger unification processes.
The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, which had included more than 500 independent states, was effectively dissolved when Emperor Francis IV abdicated (6 August 1806) during the War of the Third Coalition. Despite the legal, administrative, and political disruption associated with the end of the Empire, the people of the German-speaking areas of the old Empire had a common linguistic, cultural and legal tradition further enhanced by their shared experience in the French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic Wars. European liberalism offered an intellectual basis for unification by challenging dynastic and absolutist models of social and political organization; its German manifestation emphasized the importance of tradition, education, and linguistic unity of peoples in a geographic region. Economically, the creation of the Prussian Zollverein (customs union) in 1818, and its subsequent expansion to include other states of the German Confederation, reduced competition between and within states. Emerging modes of transportation facilitated business and recreational travel, leading to contact and sometimes conflict between and among German-speakers from throughout Central Europe.
The model of diplomatic spheres of influence resulting from the Congress of Vienna in 1814–15 after the Napoleonic Wars endorsed Austrian dominance in Central Europe. However, the negotiators at Vienna took no account of Prussia's growing strength within and among the German states, failing to foresee that Prussia would challenge Austria for leadership within the German states. This German dualism presented two solutions to the problem of unification: Kleindeutsche Lösung, the small Germany solution (Germany without Austria), or Großdeutsche Lösung, greater Germany solution (Germany with Austria).
Historians debate whether Otto von Bismarck–Minister President of Prussia–had a master plan to expand the North German Confederation of 1866 to include the remaining independent German states into a single entity, or simply to expand the power of the Kingdom of Prussia. They conclude that factors in addition to the strength of Bismarck's Realpolitik led a collection of early modern polities to reorganize political, economic, military and diplomatic relationships in the 19th century. Reaction to Danish and French nationalism provided foci for expressions of German unity. Military successes–especially those of Prussia–in three regional wars generated enthusiasm and pride that politicians could harness to promote unification. This experience echoed the memory of mutual accomplishment in the Napoleonic Wars, particularly in the War of Liberation of 1813–14. By establishing a Germany without Austria, the political and administrative unification in 1871 at least temporarily solved the problem of dualism.
Part of a series on

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:52 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

What does the above have to do with whether Germany existed as a nation state under the common meaning of that term until very late in world history?
Now, you use a new term, namely "nation state".
Germany is no 'nation state' and has never been one.
But we are of German nationality and a German nation since at least 800.

In the European history and Europe besides Germany the classic non-national states are all the multi-ethnic countries(and in history especially: the Austrian Empire, the Kingdom of France, the Kingdom of Spain, the Kingdom of Hungary, the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire)
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:53 am


Fellow Bostonians: How many of us wished we had all moved to Germany last night?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 09:54 am
@BillRM,
From your source:
Quote:
This article is about the unification of 1871.
Neither in 1871 nor in the e.g. 1849 constitution "nation state" is mentioned. What is mentioned, however, is "Deutsches Volk" (German 'volk') .... which is mentioned since 800 ... in older documents in Latin, though.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
If you care to define a nation in a non-standard way that means groups that share a common culture and who territories are in contact but are not a political unit be my guest.

However it is not the standard meaning and under such a meaning Canada and the US could be consider one nation for example.

But once more be my guest in redefining terms.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:06 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
Fortunately, not all Americans think that way.


Hallelujah Ed! For that we're all ******* grateful.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:07 am
@BillRM,
He's not "redefining" terms; he's explaining what defines Germany.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:08 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

But once more be my guest in redefining terms.
I'm not going to redefine your terms or how they are used in the USA and Canada .... but you are correct: that are the only two regions where it is used in this way.
BillRM
 
  0  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
He's not "redefining" terms; he's explaining what defines Germany.


He is redefining what a nation happen to be under common usage in trying to support the idea that there being a German nation before 1492.

There might had been a common culture to a large degree but not a political unit that most people think of as a nation.
BillRM
 
  0  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
but you are correct: that are the only two regions where it is used in this way.


Nonsense.....................
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:17 am
@BillRM,
You need to explain your "nonsense." Mr. Green The word itself has no meaning until you can justify words you use.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 May, 2013 10:29 am
@BillRM,
I rest my case. (And I really should give back my degrees in law and history Wink )
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Sun 5 May, 2013 11:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You need to explain your "nonsense." Mr. Green
The word itself has no meaning until you can justify words you use.
The word means FOOLISHNESS or chaos that has no logical value.
 

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