The grammar of "they saw Stockton discard"

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Does it mean "they saw that Stockton discarded"?
The rationale of the grammatical structure of "they saw Stockton discard" is told as: an idiomatic usage. But I am still not fully aware of such usage. Why does the verb that follows "see" have to be remained its original form?

Context:
Detectives investigating the death years later collected evidence from a cigarette butt they saw Stockton discard, and authorities said saliva on the cigarette butt matched blood found on the clothing with Baby Crystal. Stockton was arrested in 2009 after further tests showed she was the baby's mother with a 99.96% certainty.

More:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/05/mom-frozen-baby/2058307/

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Type: Question • Score: 9 • Views: 1,408 • Replies: 22

View best answer, chosen by oristarA

@oristarA,

yes.

Stockton tossed a cigarette on the ground, and it was later used for DNA matching in her trial...

0 Replies

a cigarette butt (which) they saw Stockton discard.

There is no idiom there, Ori.

0 Replies

No idiom at all

The apple I saw Stockton eat
The car I saw Stockton drive
The girl I saw Stockton kiss
The ball I saw Stockton throw
The song I heard Stockton sing
The language I heard Stockton speak
The lie I heard Stockton tell

1 Reply

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

No idiom at all

The apple I saw Stockton eat
The car I saw Stockton drive
The girl I saw Stockton kiss
The ball I saw Stockton throw
The song I heard Stockton sing
The language I heard Stockton speak
The lie I heard Stockton tell

I meant why not used:

The apple I saw Stockton ate
The car I saw Stockton drove
The girl I saw Stockton kissed
The ball I saw Stockton threw
The song I heard Stockton sang
The language I heard Stockton spoke
The lie I heard Stockton told

It is called balance: both use past tense. But you native speakers weirdly have used the original form of the verb. Such behaivor can be called idiomatic or traditional.

4 Replies

@oristarA,

oristarA wrote:

But you native speakers weirdly have used the original form of the verb. Such behaivor can be called idiomatic or traditional.

Idiomatic spoken or written forms are nonstandard ones. "Idiomatic" and "traditional" do not mean the same thing. Anyhow, there is nothing "weird" or "idiomatic" about "The apple I saw Stockton eat". It is standard English. The verb at the end is the infinitive form.

1 Reply

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:

But you native speakers weirdly have used the original form of the verb. Such behaivor can be called idiomatic or traditional.

Idiomatic spoken or written forms are nonstandard ones. "Idiomatic" and "traditional" do not mean the same thing. Anyhow, there is nothing "weird" or "idiomatic" about "The apple I saw Stockton eat". It is standard English. The verb at the end is the infinitive form.

Well, would you like to explain why the following is grammatically wrong? If you cannot explain, the theory of "idiomatic usage" stands.

Quote:

The apple I saw Stockton ate
The car I saw Stockton drove
The girl I saw Stockton kissed
The ball I saw Stockton threw
The song I heard Stockton sang
The language I heard Stockton spoke
The lie I heard Stockton told

1 Reply

@oristarA,

oristarA wrote:

Well, would you like to explain why the following is grammatically wrong? If you cannot explain, the theory of "idiomatic usage" stands.

That is bollocks, as we say idiomatically.

1 Reply

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:

Well, would you like to explain why the following is grammatically wrong? If you cannot explain, the theory of "idiomatic usage" stands.

That is bollocks, as we say idiomatically.

"Idiomatic usage" is highly compatible with "(expressed) idiomatically." Thus your conclusion "that is bollocks" has backfired.

0 Replies

You are simply not understanding this. First, you do not understand what "idiomatic" means, and secondly you do not understand the correct grammar of a statement of the type:

Personal pronoun (I/we/you/he etc) verb of experience (saw/heard/felt) personal pronoun or noun (you/him/her/John/Mary) verb or noun of action (discard/throw/eat/make/break/whatever)

We use the infinitive if the action was definitely completed during the experience described:

We saw him leave the house. The house that I saw him leave.
I heard her make the reservation. The reservation that I heard her make.
John felt the machine vibrate briefly. The machine that John felt vibrate briefly.

We use a gerund if the action was in progress at the time of the experience described and we did not see the completion:

I saw him eating a sandwich. The sandwich I saw him eating.

There is nothing idiomatic about any of this.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

Ori, ~ I meant why not use...

There is balance. Its a double negative, past tense - past tense. In English, unlike mathematics, they cancel each other out.

Instead of Stockton, try using him..
The apple I saw him eat. The apple I saw him ate? Doesn't sound right at all.
The girl I saw Stockton kissed? or The girl I saw him kiss.
The car I saw him drove?
You can't watch, hear,(barring TV) smell, taste, feel a past event in the here and now, but you can remember it. And when you recount it, you denote that it's a memory by making you, the witness, the storyteller or more precisely your action past tense. I watched, they heard, we saw, he felt... The memory, the story then plays out as it were happening now.

Here are some other examples.
I watched my dog jump over the fence. We heard the choirs sing. She felt the wind blow across her face. He had run from the scene of the crime.

1 Reply

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

You are simply not understanding this. First, you do not understand what "idiomatic" means, and secondly you do not understand the correct grammar of a statement of the type:

Personal pronoun (I/we/you/he etc) verb of experience (saw/heard/felt) personal pronoun or noun (you/him/her/John/Mary) verb or noun of action (discard/throw/eat/make/break/whatever)

We use the infinitive if the action was definitely completed during the experience described:

We saw him leave the house. The house that I saw him leave.
I heard her make the reservation. The reservation that I heard her make.
John felt the machine vibrate briefly. The machine that John felt vibrate briefly.

We use a gerund if the action was in progress at the time of the experience described and we did not see the completion:

I saw him eating a sandwich. The sandwich I saw him eating.

There is nothing idiomatic about any of this.

Excellent!

0 Replies

@oristarA,

Quote:

The rationale of the grammatical structure of "they saw Stockton discard" is told as: an idiomatic usage. But I am still not fully aware of such usage. Why does the verb that follows "see" have to be remained its original form?

Just to complement Contrex's answer, have you heard about the bare infinitive? You can read about it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv226.shtml

0 Replies

@oristarA,

Quote:

The apple I saw Stockton ate

You have misunderstood this slightly.

I saw Stockton eat an apple.

(I saw that Stockton was eating an apple = I saw that he ate an apple.)

I saw Stockton eat an apple, which was red.
I saw Stockton eat an apple in two minutes flat.
I saw Stockton eat an apple after he smoked a cigarette.

These examples are standard, ordinary English. So this statement of yours

Quote:

Such behaviour can be called idiomatic or traditional.

is not correct.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Thank you for your message, look forward to your updated again

1 Reply

@xumeineng,

You are welcome. Who are you? OristarA's friend?

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

You are welcome. Who are you? OristarA's friend?

His one other post is a rather meaningless reply in a thread that died in August 2012. Maybe a practising spammer?

0 Replies

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

There is balance. Its a double negative, past tense - past tense. In English, unlike mathematics, they cancel each other out.

The use of double negatives is a phenomenon that is heard often in this area in many people who are bilingual in Spanish and English. Double negation is standard grammar in Spanish and some people attempt to carry that into English.

"You didn't went to the show?"

"I did cooked the eggs."

"The teacher didn't teached us that."

The grammar of "they saw Stockton discard"

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