19
   

Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 03:07 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
There is scant historical and archaeological evidence of the Israelites. By and large, what we know about them is from the legendary and mythological stories in the Bible.

Egyptian records record the existence of the Hebrew deity in 1400 BC and the existence of the Israelite people in 1200 BC.

There are archaeological sites throughout the West Bank dating to 1200 BC showing a people with the dietary practices of Jews.

There are numerous records in neighboring kingdoms of international relations and/or disputes with the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah in the 9th through 7th centuries BC, including the participation of the two kingdoms in an occasional famous battle.

There is archaeological evidence of the existence of both Israel and Judah in the 9th through 7th centuries BC, especially in their capital cities of Jerusalem and Samaria.

And of course Assyria and Babylon recorded their conquest and destruction of the two kingdoms in 722 BC and 586 BC.

When you deny science and history you make it so easy.


InfraBlue wrote:
Approximately 14 percent of Ashkenazi Zionists demonstrate Y chromosome DNA haplotypes that are thought to have originated in the Middle East.

As I said, they are the indigenous population of the West Bank.
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 04:24 am
@oralloy,
And genetically indistinguishable from the Palestinians, who are also the indigenous population of the West Bank.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 07:45 am
@oralloy,
Can you tell me what year Israel broke a ceasefire with Hamas? And can you tell me how this speaks to Israel's alleged desire for peace?

Can you describe for me the details of Operation Agatha? And can you tell me how this speaks to Israel's alleged desire for peace?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 09:05 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
And genetically indistinguishable from the Palestinians, who are also the indigenous population of the West Bank.

This does not make it OK for the Palestinians to refuse to make peace with Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 09:06 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
Can you tell me what year Israel broke a ceasefire with Hamas?

I expect never. It sounds like the sort of nonsense that Palestinians spout to justify murdering children.


Glennn wrote:
Can you describe for me the details of Operation Agatha?

No. I am too busy playing World of Warcraft and watching the Olympics to look up some obscure reference.


Glennn wrote:
And can you tell me how this speaks to Israel's alleged desire for peace?
Glennn wrote:
And can you tell me how this speaks to Israel's alleged desire for peace?

It sounds to me like they are Palestinian excuses for refusing to make peace.
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 09:27 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I expect never.

Yes, I understand what your expectations are. But that is not what I asked you. So rather than expressing your expectations, why don't you do the research required to tell me what year Israel broke a ceasefire with Hamas?
Quote:
No. I am too busy playing World of Warcraft and watching the Olympics to look up some obscure reference.

I think we both know that the reason you won't describe the details of Operation Agatha has nothing to do with being too busy playing games and watching sports.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 12:35 pm
@Glennn,
I wonder what kind of excuse he gave when he flunked a test. Too busy watching sports.....

InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 12:38 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
There is scant historical and archaeological evidence of the Israelites. By and large, what we know about them is from the legendary and mythological stories in the Bible.

Egyptian records record the existence of the Hebrew deity in 1400 BC and the existence of the Israelite people in 1200 BC.

The existence of a Hebrew deity is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing. It isn't clear to whom those records refer to exactly seeing as how the accompanying illustrations depict Canaanites.

oralloy wrote:
There are archaeological sites throughout the West Bank dating to 1200 BC showing a people with the dietary practices of Jews

The dietary practices of Jews is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing. There have been found absences of pig bones in Aramaean sites as well as in Palestine during these times.

oralloy wrote:
There are numerous records in neighboring kingdoms of international relations and/or disputes with the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah in the 9th through 7th centuries BC, including the participation of the two kingdoms in an occasional famous battle.


Actually, the artifacts refer to kings and leaders of certain family lines not Israel and the nature of these rulers in regard to who or what they ruled over isn't clear from these artifacts and actually tend to contradict the legends and mythologies found in the Bible.

oralloy wrote:
There is archaeological evidence of the existence of both Israel and Judah in the 9th through 7th centuries BC, especially in their capital cities of Jerusalem and Samaria.


There is more evidence for Judah than there is for Israel, or Israelites which is the point I am arguing, during these times.

oralloy wrote:
And of course Assyria and Babylon recorded their conquest and destruction of the two kingdoms in 722 BC and 586 BC.


The Assyrians record the defeat of the king of Israel, not the destruction of a kingdom.

Quote:
When you deny science and history you make it so easy.


Science and history are one thing, legends and myths are quite another.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Approximately 14 percent of Ashkenazi Zionists demonstrate Y chromosome DNA haplotypes that are thought to have originated in the Middle East.

As I said, they are the indigenous population of the West Bank.


Those haplotypes originate from the Middle East in general, not the West Bank in particular, and 14 percent is only a fraction of the total Ashkenazi Zionist population. The idea that the Zionists are the indigenous population of the West Bank having a 14 percent genetic origin in the Middle East in general is preposterous.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 04:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Dont you ever get tired of the anti-Semite attempt to overcome fact? Prove me wrong or shut up.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2016 04:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The existence of a Hebrew deity is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing. It isn't clear to whom those records refer to exactly seeing as how the accompanying illustrations depict Canaanites.


That's what I found also.
CVeigh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2016 12:27 am
@RABEL222,
Soooo, that has no standing unless you first give allegiance to the Bible yourself. Now what kind of person would do that and then surrender interpretation to a stranger. This makes the central teaching authority of the Catholic Church more credible.

AND : Why believe everyone who says I am a Christian. Really
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2016 06:46 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The Zionists are the same group of people. They just want to return to their indigenous home.


Here here!
-Yours Truly -
Sitting Bull
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2016 09:30 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Dont you ever get tired of the anti-Semite attempt to overcome fact? Prove me wrong or shut up.


You can prove they refuse to talk about non-Jewish victims? You made the statement I would say it's up to you to prove it.

I also wrote that your statement read anti-Semetic. If that hits too close to home for you, it's not my problem.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 01:20 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
I think we both know that the reason you won't describe the details of Operation Agatha has nothing to do with being too busy playing games and watching sports.

Hallucinate whatever you like. The fact remains, the Palestinians refused to make peace and now Israel gets to keep the land.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 01:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I wonder what kind of excuse he gave when he flunked a test. Too busy watching sports.....

You forget your place. I wasn't the one who was flunking tests.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 01:24 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The existence of a Hebrew deity is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing.

Yes, two different things. One is dated to 1400 BC and the other is dated to 1200 BC.


InfraBlue wrote:
It isn't clear to whom those records refer to exactly seeing as how the accompanying illustrations depict Canaanites.

Since the Israelites were one of the Iron Age kingdoms that rose from the ashes after Bronze Age Canaan collapsed, why wouldn't they be depicted as Canaanites, especially in their first moments as a separate culture?


InfraBlue wrote:
The dietary practices of Jews is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing.

Not separate things. Archaeologists have found evidence of the Israelite culture in the West Bank area circa 1200 BC (exactly the time that Egyptian records note their emergence as a culture in this area).


InfraBlue wrote:
There have been found absences of pig bones in Aramaean sites as well as in Palestine during these times.

So their neighbors had some of the same cultural practices. That is not surprising considering that these Iron Age kingdoms all rose from the remains of Bronze Age Canaan.


InfraBlue wrote:
Actually, the artifacts refer to kings and leaders of certain family lines not Israel and the nature of these rulers in regard to who or what they ruled over isn't clear from these artifacts

The House of David refers to the ruling line of Judah. Ahab the Israelite was a king of the northern Israelite kingdom.


InfraBlue wrote:
and actually tend to contradict the legends and mythologies found in the Bible.

Welcome to history and archaeology. Eighteen Rabbit's claims of absolute victory every time he returned from battle are suspect as well.

When kings promote national histories that aren't true, that doesn't prevent historians and archaeologists from piecing together the truth.


InfraBlue wrote:
There is more evidence for Judah than there is for Israel, or Israelites which is the point I am arguing, during these times.

There are the ninth and eighth century BC remains of Samaria. And Kings Omri and Ahab garnered a fair amount of international notice.


InfraBlue wrote:
The Assyrians record the defeat of the king of Israel, not the destruction of a kingdom.

The existence of a king for them to defeat suggests the existence of a kingdom.


InfraBlue wrote:
Science and history are one thing, legends and myths are quite another.

Science and history firmly establish that the Hebrew deity existed as early as 1400 BC, that the Israelite culture existed in the West Bank area as early as 1200 BC, and that the Israelite kingdoms of Judah and Israel existed in the ninth through seventh centuries BC.


InfraBlue wrote:
Those haplotypes originate from the Middle East in general, not the West Bank in particular,

We know from history and archaeology exactly where the Jewish homeland is.


InfraBlue wrote:
Those haplotypes originate from the Middle East in general, not the West Bank in particular, and 14 percent is only a fraction of the total Ashkenazi Zionist population. The idea that the Zionists are the indigenous population of the West Bank having a 14 percent genetic origin in the Middle East in general is preposterous.

The fact that they interbred with others during their forced exile does not remove their right to their ancient homeland.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 01:25 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
The existence of a Hebrew deity is one thing, the existence of an Israelite people is another thing. It isn't clear to whom those records refer to exactly seeing as how the accompanying illustrations depict Canaanites.

That's what I found also.

Do you even know what he and I were talking about?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 03:29 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Since the Israelites were one of the Iron Age kingdoms that rose from the ashes after Bronze Age Canaan collapsed, why wouldn't they be depicted as Canaanites, especially in their first moments as a separate culture?

Seeing as how the depictions are of Canaanites, they're not evidence of a separate Israelite culture.

oralloy wrote:
So their neighbors had some of the same cultural practices. That is not surprising considering that these Iron Age kingdoms all rose from the remains of Bronze Age Canaan.

The fact that there were practices found in various parts of the Levant indicates that these practices don't distinguish an Israelite culture.

oralloy wrote:
The House of David refers to the ruling line of Judah. Ahab the Israelite was a king of the northern Israelite kingdom.

You are quoting the legends and mythologies of the Bible. The archaeological record doesn't confirm them.

oralloy wrote:
When kings promote national histories that aren't true, that doesn't prevent historians and archaeologists from piecing together the truth.


Religious leaders also promote national histories that aren't true. And the truth that historians and archaeologists have pieced together is that the legends and mythologies of the Bible are hardly national histories and more religious/political propaganda.

oralloy wrote:
There are the ninth and eighth century BC remains of Samaria. And Kings Omri and Ahab garnered a fair amount of international notice.

Sure, and the discovery of their mention in the archaeological artifacts have brought to question the legends and myths about them and Israel that are found in the Bible.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And of course Assyria and Babylon recorded their conquest and destruction of the two kingdoms in 722 BC and 586 BC.

The Assyrians record the defeat of the king of Israel, not the destruction of a kingdom.

The existence of a king for them to defeat suggests the existence of a kingdom.

Actually, it was the Arameans, most likely Hazael of Aram-Damascus, that mention the defeat of the son of the king of Israel c.870–750 BC. I don't know where the Assyrians recorded their conquest and destruction of the two kingdoms in 722 BC.

oralloy wrote:
Science and history firmly establish that the Hebrew deity existed as early as 1400 BC, that the Israelite culture existed in the West Bank area as early as 1200 BC, and that the Israelite kingdoms of Judah and Israel existed in the ninth through seventh centuries BC.

The scientific and historical discoveries call into question the legends and myths concerning the Hebrew deity and Israelite kingdoms found in the Bible. That the Zionists base their claims of ownership of Palestine on these legends and myths is risible.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Those haplotypes originate from the Middle East in general, not the West Bank in particular,

We know from history and archaeology exactly where the Jewish homeland is.


Your assertion about the Jewish homeland has nothing to do with the genetic origins of a minority of Ashkenazim.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Those haplotypes originate from the Middle East in general, not the West Bank in particular, and 14 percent is only a fraction of the total Ashkenazi Zionist population. The idea that the Zionists are the indigenous population of the West Bank having a 14 percent genetic origin in the Middle East in general is preposterous.

The fact that they interbred with others during their forced exile does not remove their right to their ancient homeland.


Like I said, your assertions are preposterous.
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 08:39 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Hallucinate whatever you like. The fact remains, the Palestinians refused to make peace and now Israel gets to keep the land.

Ah, so now when faced with the violent nature and character of Zionism as evidenced by the details of Operation Agatha, you simply deny that it ever happened. I understand completely.

I also understand your refusal to tell me what year it was that Israel broke a ceasefire with Hamas which showed Israel's lack of commitment to peace.
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2016 07:18 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
16 million German citizens died in the death camps. When Israel and people like you refer to the death camps you pretend that only Jewish citizens died there. Ive never been to Israel's Holocaust memorial but I would be willing to bet that there is no mention made of any but the Jews who died there. It gives them an excuse to kill Palestinians without the guilt they should feel. If that makes me an anti-semite, so be it. But what I really am is anti Isralie.
 

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