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Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 12:12 am
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
peacefully... as second and third class citizens, on land which was theirs until systematically taken from them.

Just putting an idea out here (I assume the Israelis and Palestinians will both dislike it): what if Israel decided to grant full rights as an Israeli citizen to every Palestinian who renounced Islam and converted to Judaism? And I mean actually practicing the Jewish religion, not just saying "I'm a Jew" on a census form.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 10:27 am
@oralloy,
@probably the same thing that would happen if the palestinians offered full rights to all jews who converfted to islam and turned israel into an islamic state.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 12:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Why don't you start banning Asians from this country. The 442 Infantry Batllion,made up of Japanese Americans who fought in Europe is the most decorated unit in the US. What did you contribute to this country?

Why would I want to ban Asians? They are sort of cute, in my opinion. If you analyze your prior post, you would see that you thought Jews/Israelis have no right to Israel, since they were intermittent guests, with no continuous history there. I was just giving you your own logic. Or, don't you see that? Isn't it time for one of your bon vivant vacations? Enjoy! By the way, fast forward 100 years, and the U.S. will still have Asians, but there will be plenty of folks with an Asian in their ancestry. Through the miracle of recessive genes, Asians will likely, in my opinion, be melded into the American gene pool, in two shakes of a lambs tail, as the saying goes.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 12:09 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Foofie wrote:
And, all that DNA analysis that you refer to also makes an argument that male Ashkenazim often have the Y chromosome from the mid-east, while the X chromosome comes often from a European female. The theory is that early travels, to set up trading posts in pagan Europe, led to mixing with European women; the children were brought up as Jews.


A minority of Ashkenazim males exhibit chromosomal haplotypes that are thought to have originated in the Middle East. Most female Ashkenazim exhibit mitochondrial DNA that originated in Europe. This give the lie to the legends and myths of the Bible that claim a matrilineal decent of Jews, and the ridiculous claims that the Zionists own Palestine thereof.


If you remember, ethnic Germans, after WWI were living in Poland, and after WWII those ethnic Germans had to leave their homes and go back to Germany, since that land became Poland once again.

But, you argue your position all you want. You would have a better chance to say that the South shall rise again. There never was a Palestine to rise again. The Palestinians cannot make their DNA a basis for a homeland, since their DNA is really very much like the DNA of Jews. Now don't that beat all (Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, hmmm)>
catbeasy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 01:01 pm
@oralloy,
Well, there's the onus for those people who want to argue either side. Its obviously factually true to you.

You show no nuance, no thoughtfulness that isn't informed by a clearly, obvious, redundant, interest. This isn't Disney. This isn't an 80's sitcom. There is clearly plenty of evidence for culpability for both sides, though in my opinion the one with the most power gets the most blame as they own the lions share of the control. I might also ask why those with the lessor power are behaving as they are.

I think most people are this way. Ask what Americans would do if a foreign force tried to put the American Indians back in their original land, displacing the Americans already living there. I'm sure they would quietly acquiesce to the Indians and the foreign force as it is the 'right' thing to do..!
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 01:31 pm
@Foofie,
The situation in postwar Europe does not justify the Zionists oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

There never was an Israel the way the Zionists fantasize it, either. My position is more to the point of justice for the Palestinians, and the risk of a brutal and violent resolution to the Zionists' continued reneging of that justice.

Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 01:36 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

There never was an Israel the way the Zionists fantasize it, either. My position is more to the point of justice for the Palestinians, and the risk of a brutal and violent resolution to the Zionists' continued reneging of that justice.




You have a "position"?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 02:06 pm
@Foofie,
Most of us have a position. It happens to agree with the United Nations that Israel's settlements are illegal.

Quote:
The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law.[1][2][3][4][5] Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 02:20 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

There never was an Israel the way the Zionists fantasize it, either. My position is more to the point of justice for the Palestinians, and the risk of a brutal and violent resolution to the Zionists' continued reneging of that justice.


You have a "position"?

You talked about arguing my position, sure.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 05:44 pm
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:
Its obviously factually true to you.

The problem with liberals (most of them anyway) is that they think facts can be whatever they want them to be.

No!

Facts are facts! Period!


catbeasy wrote:
You show no nuance, no thoughtfulness that isn't informed by a clearly, obvious, redundant, interest. This isn't Disney. This isn't an 80's sitcom. There is clearly plenty of evidence for culpability for both sides, though in my opinion the one with the most power gets the most blame as they own the lions share of the control. I might also ask why those with the lessor power are behaving as they are.

Israel repeatedly and endlessly offered the Palestinians a two-state solution based on 1967 borders. Every single time the Palestinians decided instead to reject peace and wage perpetual war on Israel.

The Palestinians had their chance. Now Israel gets to keep the land for themselves.


catbeasy wrote:
I think most people are this way. Ask what Americans would do if a foreign force tried to put the American Indians back in their original land, displacing the Americans already living there. I'm sure they would quietly acquiesce to the Indians and the foreign force as it is the 'right' thing to do..!

Justifying the Palestinians' refusal to accept the two-state solution also justifies Israel keeping all the land for themselves.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 05:46 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The situation in postwar Europe does not justify the Zionists oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

The Palestinians are not being oppressed. They were repeatedly and endlessly offered a two-state solution. All they needed to do was agree to peace with Israel.

Every single time, the Palestinians chose instead to wage perpetual war against Israel.


InfraBlue wrote:
There never was an Israel the way the Zionists fantasize it, either.

While there may well be Zionists who have unrealistic fantasies of Iron Age Israel, there are also Zionists who envision the Iron Age Israel that is depicted by archaeology.

I just bought a couple books by an Israeli archaeologist. Since he is Israeli I presume he believes in Israel's right to exist (though I neither know nor care about his politics; I want his books for the science). I'm pretty sure that his vision of Iron Age Israel is going to be pretty accurate.


InfraBlue wrote:
My position is more to the point of justice for the Palestinians, and the risk of a brutal and violent resolution to the Zionists' continued reneging of that justice.

Justice for the Palestinians would involve making them answer for their refusal to accept a peaceful two-state solution with Israel.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 05:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of us have a position. It happens to agree with the United Nations that Israel's settlements are illegal.

Quote:
The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law.[1][2][3][4][5] Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]

The UN also says that it is illegal for the Palestinians to refuse to make peace with Israel.

Your ignoring of the law here undermines your position and makes it OK for Israel to keep the land for themselves.
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 07:40 pm
@oralloy,
Thanks for lesson in what facts are. Doesn't it embarrass you to keep repeating the same thing about how the Palestinians refuse peace over and over again as if somehow your averance to this will make it true? Just how do you know this? Do you have special knowledge that none of us have access to? How do you know that the Israelis don't undermine their peace overtures? Do you have a "facts are facts" crystal ball?

You remind me of the uber religious who keep uttering their same mantras ad nasuem in some Freudian effort to maintain their fantasys..good luck to you man..your life sounds like it needs it..
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 08:01 pm
I remember watching this some years back. As I recall, it was an interesting perspective on the situation.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube+of+peace+propaganda+and+the+promised+land&view=detail&mid=75FE70E29ACCE4154D1775FE70E29ACCE4154D17&FORM=VIRE

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 09:24 pm
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:
Thanks for lesson in what facts are.

You're welcome. I'm here to help.


catbeasy wrote:
Doesn't it embarrass you to keep repeating the same thing about how the Palestinians refuse peace over and over again

No. Stating facts does not embarrass me.


catbeasy wrote:
as if somehow your averance to this will make it true?

The really nice thing about facts is, they are true of their own accord. They do not need to be "made" true.


catbeasy wrote:
Just how do you know this?

I pay attention to reality. It's right there all around us. All you need to do is pay attention to it.


catbeasy wrote:
Do you have special knowledge that none of us have access to?

No. I just pay attention to reality.


catbeasy wrote:
How do you know that the Israelis don't undermine their peace overtures?

By paying attention to reality.


catbeasy wrote:
Do you have a "facts are facts" crystal ball?

I don't know. Can you define what such a thing is?


catbeasy wrote:
You remind me of the uber religious who keep uttering their same mantras ad nasuem in some Freudian effort to maintain their fantasys..

Reality is not a fantasy. It is true however that facts do not change from moment to moment. They tend to remain unchanging.


catbeasy wrote:
good luck to you man..

Thank you.


catbeasy wrote:
your life sounds like it needs it..

I don't see how respect for reality would necessitate any particular need for better luck. However better luck is always appreciated.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2016 12:23 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Facts are facts! Period!


Unfortunately most of your so called facts are your opinion when one looks up your statements. You dont know the difference between fact, opinion, or lies.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2016 02:09 pm
@InfraBlue,
I think I am unable to argue with you.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2016 02:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Most of us have a position. It happens to agree with the United Nations that Israel's settlements are illegal.

Quote:
The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law.[1][2][3][4][5] Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]





Can't discuss anymore.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2016 10:19 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
The situation in postwar Europe does not justify the Zionists oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

The Palestinians are not being oppressed. They were repeatedly and endlessly offered a two-state solution. All they needed to do was agree to peace with Israel.

Every single time, the Palestinians chose instead to wage perpetual war against Israel.

The two state solution ignores the Palestinians' Right of Return. Israel's continued arrogation of West Bank land negates their pretext of a two state solution regardless.


oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
There never was an Israel the way the Zionists fantasize it, either.

While there may well be Zionists who have unrealistic fantasies of Iron Age Israel, there are also Zionists who envision the Iron Age Israel that is depicted by archaeology.

I just bought a couple books by an Israeli archaeologist. Since he is Israeli I presume he believes in Israel's right to exist (though I neither know nor care about his politics; I want his books for the science). I'm pretty sure that his vision of Iron Age Israel is going to be pretty accurate.

Sure, and it would be irrelevant to the Zionist claim that they own Palestine.


oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
My position is more to the point of justice for the Palestinians, and the risk of a brutal and violent resolution to the Zionists' continued reneging of that justice.

Justice for the Palestinians would involve making them answer for their refusal to accept a peaceful two-state solution with Israel.

Justice for the Palestinians would involve the Zionists complying with international law and implementing the Palestinians' Right of Return.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2016 10:20 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

I think I am unable to argue with you.

Yet you insist on responding to my posts?
0 Replies
 
 

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