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Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2016 09:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter, in his quote of who knows who wrote:

Thanks for stating facts.

Answers
Relevance
Rabbi for you
Best Answer: Palestinians occupied the coastal strip from Gaza to Haifa with a depth of 50 miles. They were originally Europeans.
Israelis were called in the old times Hebrews or Habiru ( a nomadic people mentioned in Assyro-Babylonian literature: possibly the early Hebrews.) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/habiru came from Babel and settled in the land of Canan West of the Dead Sea.
Habirus were nomadic people and they moved to Egypt where they settled for 430 years and then returned back after hiding in Sinai for 40 years escaping from Pharaoh who drove them out of Egypt to south Sinai as North Sinai, Palestine and the land of Canan were part of the Egyptian Empire at that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egypt_1450_BC.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hitt_Egypt_Perseus.png
As soon as Pharaoh died, they moved to Canan again till the Romans drove them out from the land.
The mention of Palestine( Philistines, the name it is know of in the Middle East till now) in the Torah means that Palestine was there even before Judaism.
Both nations were enemies and had severe fights between them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant#Captured_by_the_Philistines
So actually I see Israelis as vistors to the land, they come and go every now and then.

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Genealogical research has shown that the Palestinians exhibit chromosomal haplotypes that originated in Palestine and the rest of the Levant. He's conflating the word "Palestinian" with the Philistines from which the word "Palestine" derives and ascribing the origins of the Palestinians--who are named after the region--to the Philistines. Further, he's taking the legends and myths found in the Bible and using those to ascribe the origins of the Zionist Ashkenazim and other Jews. These legends and myths, which originated in Palestine and were elaborated in Mesopotamia, originated a religion, not "Israelis." Further still, the word "Israelites," not "Israelis," is regarded as generally synonymous with "Hebrews." "Israelis" are the Jewish population of the modern state of Israel. This guy conflates and obfuscates the two words.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2016 02:05 pm
@InfraBlue,
Earlier we were discussing whether Judah was a full fledged kingdom at a given point in history. It got me curious about when it was first acknowledged as such in the historical record.

I found this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrud_Tablet_K.3751
Quote:
The Nimrud Tablet K.3751, also known as Kalhu Palace Summary Inscription 7 is an inscription on a clay tablet dated c.733 BC[1] from the reign of Tiglath-Pileser III (745 to 727 BC), discovered by George Smith in 1873 in Nimrud.[2] The tablet describes the first 17 years of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign, and was likely composed in or shortly after his 17th year.[3] It contains the first known archeological reference to Judah (Yaudaya or KUR.ia-รบ-da-a-a).[1]
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2016 02:33 pm
@oralloy,
"Do we deny rights to native Americans.."

I still haven't stopped laughing [or was that crying?] Over this comment?

Maybe the native American population should petition the American govt to get back the original land they were driven out of and exterminated for? Maybe get the Israelis to sign the petition?
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2016 02:44 pm
@catbeasy,
I dont think I would invite any Israelies to the reservations. They might start building settlements there. Once they start that its impossible to get them out.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2016 03:38 pm
@RABEL222,
Thanks for my good laugh for today. That was funny!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2016 04:15 pm
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:
Maybe the native American population should petition the American govt to get back the original land they were driven out of and exterminated for? Maybe get the Israelis to sign the petition?

A more reasonable effort would be to petition the courts to enforce treaties that the US government signed.
catbeasy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 09:28 am
@oralloy,
I think you missed the point..!
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 02:16 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:

Quote:
should not be asked to share a little of their "sand" as big as New Jersey


uh, first of all, the Palestinians weren't asked a thing about their land. that discussion happened independent of them.
second, it's not a little bit of their land. it's my opinion that the Zionists were on a mission to get as much land in the region as they possibly could--in total disregard for the indigenous population. the Palestinians were blindsided.

As for my being unsympathetic, you're wrong. I am sympathetic (to the situation of the surviving Jews), not to a country, which has resulted in the disenfranchisement and displacement of persons, who had no say in the underhanded promises regarding their land.
Even if the Palestinians had a responsibility to the surviving Jews, as you say, they weren't given the opportunity to understand that responsibility.

It's clear that you aren't sympathetic to the Palestinian situation. And it's easy for you, as you only open yourself to Jewish suffering, as if it's the only suffering that matters/exists.




I don't see any solutions offered now, or for the past, by you. However, right around the same time that Israel came into existence, as a Zionist state, Pakistan came into existence as a Moslem state. The Pakistanis did not want to live in India, and so they didn't have to. The Jews, after WWII were not welcome anywhere. Come up with a solution, if you want to discuss; otherwise your allusions to my one sided empathy means little, since the Palestinians just did not want to live in a Zionist state. The point you seem to be ignoring is that few gentiles wants to live under Jewish hegemony. Address that in context of other indigenous peoples that are Israeli citizens, that are not Jewish, and living peacefully in a Zionist State.
Maybe the Palestinians should learn how not to be obstreperous, and they would gain the benefit of Israel's economy.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 02:19 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:

Quote:
The Zionists *are* the indigenous population.


Assuming every Zionist is a Jew with origins in Israel, they still aren't indigenous population. There were people in the region long before Judaism was invented 3500 years ago, unless you mean to tell me all those people became Jews.


Jews don't believe that Judaism was "invented," but discovered and then codified on Mount Sinai. No people thinks that their religion was discovered.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 02:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

...So actually I see Israelis as vistors to the land, they come and go every now and then.


Based on your viewpoint, an argument can be made to close immigration to Asians, since if Israelis/Jews were a foreign visitor, so are Asians, other than Native Americans, in the New World?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 02:31 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

...Further, he's taking the legends and myths found in the Bible and using those to ascribe the origins of the Zionist Ashkenazim and other Jews. These legends and myths, which originated in Palestine and were elaborated in Mesopotamia, originated a religion, not "Israelis." Further still, the word "Israelites," not "Israelis," is regarded as generally synonymous with "Hebrews." "Israelis" are the Jewish population of the modern state of Israel. This guy conflates and obfuscates the two words.



Not really. Jewish cemeteries are called Hebrew cemeteries. Jews still are aware of the tribe that they inherit through father, either Levite, Cohen, or Israelite. Ten of the 12 tribes were sold into slavery, and only Levites and Cohens have a pedigree.

And, all that DNA analysis that you refer to also makes an argument that male Ashkenazim often have the Y chromosome from the mid-east, while the X chromosome comes often from a European female. The theory is that early travels, to set up trading posts in pagan Europe, led to mixing with European women; the children were brought up as Jews.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 02:33 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

I dont think I would invite any Israelies to the reservations. They might start building settlements there. Once they start that its impossible to get them out.


I think it more likely that many a daughter would want to marry one of the Jews, to get the heck out of the reservation.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 03:00 pm
@Foofie,
Why don't you start banning Asians from this country. The 442 Infantry Batllion,made up of Japanese Americans who fought in Europe is the most decorated unit in the US. What did you contribute to this country?
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 04:05 pm
@Foofie,
I don't need a solution to talk about the Palestinian right to land their families lived on for generations.

Quote:
The Palestinians just did not want to live in a Zionist state.

An omission if there ever was one. The Zionists, from the beginning, wanted an Israel with as few Palestinians as possible, and operated under that desire to achieve their objective, effectively cleansing Palestine. Do not make it seem like the Zionists were happy to accommodate the Palestinians. They were not.
Quote:
The point you seem to be ignoring is that few gentiles wants to live under Jewish hegemony. Address that in context of other indigenous peoples that are Israeli citizens, that are not Jewish, and living peacefully in a Zionist State.

peacefully... as second and third class citizens, on land which was theirs until systematically taken from them. also, i can't ignore that which is irrelevant.

The fact of the matter remains that Europeans exploited the Palestinians, who found themselves caught in the midst of a powerful foreign ideology they ultimately couldn't defend against.
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 04:09 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Jews don't believe that Judaism was "invented," but discovered and then codified on Mount Sinai. No people thinks that their religion was discovered.


I never said Jews believed that. I wasn't speaking as a Jew.
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 06:28 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Jews don't believe that Judaism was "invented," but discovered and then codified on Mount Sinai. No people thinks that their religion was discovered.

Can you clarify? What do you mean people don't think that their religion was discovered? What was it then? Certainly they don't think it was invented! Given by their God?

Joseph Smith 'discovered' golden plates that led him to 'invent' mormonism. From his point of view? He was probably led to 'discover' the plates and the plates contained the 'invention' of mormonism..

Very confusing!

And btw, the way I interpret your writings, you seem to assume that the Israeli govt has all good intentions in incorporating the Palestinians to benefit from all the great things their state offers. I think this point is in contention and not at all to be assumed.

In fact it is so contentious that their has been numerous books and articles written that state the complete opposite. One's rhetoric does not make one's policy - for either side in this issue.

I think one should at least be suspicious of what they are doing. To state unequivocally that the Palestinians are the 'bad guys' who are 'obstreperously' resisting what's best for them reeks of interest.

The 'bad guys'..LOL! Christ, reduced to using phrases best left to an Arnold S. movie
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 06:53 pm
@catbeasy,
Righto! The UN says that the Israeli settlements are illegal. Foofie probably has more influence than the UN on world matters. Her ego needs a bit of shrinking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2016 11:39 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

...Further, he's taking the legends and myths found in the Bible and using those to ascribe the origins of the Zionist Ashkenazim and other Jews. These legends and myths, which originated in Palestine and were elaborated in Mesopotamia, originated a religion, not "Israelis." Further still, the word "Israelites," not "Israelis," is regarded as generally synonymous with "Hebrews." "Israelis" are the Jewish population of the modern state of Israel. This guy conflates and obfuscates the two words.


Not really. Jewish cemeteries are called Hebrew cemeteries. Jews still are aware of the tribe that they inherit through father, either Levite, Cohen, or Israelite. Ten of the 12 tribes were sold into slavery, and only Levites and Cohens have a pedigree.


Like I said, the Zionists base their ideology on the legends and myths in the Bible.

Foofie wrote:
And, all that DNA analysis that you refer to also makes an argument that male Ashkenazim often have the Y chromosome from the mid-east, while the X chromosome comes often from a European female. The theory is that early travels, to set up trading posts in pagan Europe, led to mixing with European women; the children were brought up as Jews.


A minority of Ashkenazim males exhibit chromosomal haplotypes that are thought to have originated in the Middle East. Most female Ashkenazim exhibit mitochondrial DNA that originated in Europe. This give the lie to the legends and myths of the Bible that claim a matrilineal decent of Jews, and the ridiculous claims that the Zionists own Palestine thereof.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 12:01 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
The UN says that the Israeli settlements are illegal.

It also says that the Palestinians' perpetual war against Israel is illegal.

Since the Palestinians refuse to make peace, Israel will keep the land for themselves.

Well done Israel!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 12:05 am
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:
To state unequivocally that the Palestinians are the 'bad guys' who are 'obstreperously' resisting what's best for them reeks of interest.

Even if it's factually true?
 

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