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Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

 
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 04:51 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
There! Now was that so hard?

Let's look at the facts. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice, and the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Convention all concur that the Israeli settlements are illegal. Do you support a regime that commits land theft? If so, I would suggest to you that there comes a point when you have to admit to yourself that you’ve fallen into the “Israel is right and the world is wrong” mindset.

Are you opposed to Palestinians resisting occupation?

And what about that ceasefire Israel broke with Hamas? What's up with that? Do you think it speaks to the Israeli regime's desire for peace?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 04:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Quote:
but do you think that the violence of the Palestinians (and surely you're not going to argue it doesn't exist) is any less prevalent or less unacceptable than what you cite as Zionist violence?


I'll be more than happy to answer your question. The Israelis cut off water from the West Bank. Do you know how long humans can live without water?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ramadan-2016-israel-water-west-bank-cuts-off-a7082826.html

How long do you think you can survive without water?

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 04:53 pm
@RABEL222,
I'm trying to guess his age, and it could go either way. Awfully old, or awfully young.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 05:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
It 'is' less prevalent, http://www.jpost.com/Israel/BTselem-Since-2000-7454-Israelis-Palestinians-killed. Palestinians are the victims. They fight to defend the land of their parents. Israel prevents them from retrieving the land in favor of a Jewish homeland.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 06:16 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
It sounds like a culture to you. It's not a reference to culture, however.

They identify the Israelites as a specific group of people, by name.


InfraBlue wrote:
Repeating yourself doesn't make it any less of a misconception.

No misconception. Archaeology really does identify the Israelite culture as living in the West Bank as far back as 1200 BC.


InfraBlue wrote:
This is another presumption not supported by the text of the stele.

Ninth century BC references to the House of David very much prove that there was a leader named David and that he founded a dynasty.

We know that his dynasty led to the Kingdom of Judah from the later evidence that Judah existed, and that its leaders were from the House of David.


InfraBlue wrote:
You're basing your claims on your presumptions that are based on the Biblical legends and myths.

This is silly. I have not once relied on a legend or myth, and have consistently referred to history and archaeology.


InfraBlue wrote:
Repeating the delusion doesn't make it any less of a delusion.
You're repeating your delusion, again.
And again.

No delusion. History and archaeology really do show that the West Bank is the homeland of the Jews.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 06:20 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
Good. We've finally established that you are aware that Israel broke a ceasefire with Hamas.

I am not aware of any such thing. And given your recent track record in this thread, the mere fact that you are trying to imply it is reason to doubt that it's true.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 06:23 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
Let's look at the facts. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice, and the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Convention all concur that the Israeli settlements are illegal.

They also concur that it illegal for the Palestinians to wage perpetual war against Israel.


Glennn wrote:
Do you support a regime that commits land theft?

Hardly land theft. The Palestinians refused to make peace, and now Israel gets to keep the land.


Glennn wrote:
If so, I would suggest to you that there comes a point when you have to admit to yourself that you’ve fallen into the “Israel is right and the world is wrong” mindset.

How about: Israel is right and YOU are wrong.


Glennn wrote:
Are you opposed to Palestinians resisting occupation?

The Palestinians are not resisting occupation. They are killing people for no other reason than that they enjoy doing it.


Glennn wrote:
And what about that ceasefire Israel broke with Hamas? What's up with that? Do you think it speaks to the Israeli regime's desire for peace?

Your denial of Israel's peace efforts legitimizes the settlements. Thanks for doing your part to make the settlements legal.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 06:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Israelis cut off water from the West Bank.

Nonsense.


cicerone imposter wrote:
Do you know how long humans can live without water?

As far as I'm concerned the Palestinians can drink sand. But your claim is just one more false accusation to stir up hatred against "those Jews".
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 06:26 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
Palestinians are the victims. They fight to defend the land of their parents. Israel prevents them from retrieving the land in favor of a Jewish homeland.

Israel offered the Palestinians an independent state in the West Bank, and offered it over and over and over again.

The Palestinians are the aggressors, not the victims. They fight because they enjoy killing innocent people.
perennialloner
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 07:00 pm
@oralloy,
They are victims. Of Israel and of Arab states and leaders. But they are victims. At the end of the day, no one's looking out for the Palestinians, except maybe Jordan. So, they look after themselves.

Quote:
They fight because they enjoy killing innocent people
.

You know better than this.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 07:36 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
They are victims. Of Israel and of Arab states and leaders. But they are victims.

They were offered their own state in exchange for peace, and were offered it over and over and over again. Their response was always to keep murdering innocent Israelis.

That makes the Palestinians the aggressors.
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 09:05 pm
@oralloy,
They were being delegated to by Europeans, outsiders, on the land they had lived on for generations upon generations. They weren't kindly being given less than half their land. Why should they be expected to resign themselves to such a "solution." They acted in anger and desperation to a decision they had no say in.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 09:30 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
They were being delegated to by Europeans, outsiders, on the land they had lived on for generations upon generations. They weren't kindly being given less than half their land. Why should they be expected to resign themselves to such a "solution." They acted in anger and desperation to a decision they had no say in.

The solution would have allowed the Palestinians to have their own sovereign state where they could live in peace and prosperity.

By rejecting a two state solution and rejecting peace with Israel, the Palestinians obviated Israel's obligation to return any land to them at all.

Obviously they are still going to be provided with some land, but it is clear that Israel will now keep all of Areas B and C, with the eventual Palestinian state being composed only of parts of Area A.

That's quite a step back from the 1967 borders that they would have gotten in exchange for making peace.
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 09:43 pm
@oralloy,
That's not the point. The Palestinians did and do not think that Israel deserves to exist, as many people do, and rejected the solution on those grounds. Israel can't have an obligation to return land if the land isn't its to claim.
You clearly aren't sympathetic to the Palestinian narrative, and only see things in a way that fit your own, so there's no point arguing.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 09:50 pm
@perennialloner,
From the simple fact that the international community has declared Israel's settlements on Palestinian lands as illegal should be enough information for any clear minded person to see who is breaking the laws. It's a very simple issue.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 10:27 pm
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:
You clearly aren't sympathetic to the Palestinian narrative, and only see things in a way that fit your own, so there's no point arguing.

Well, the Palestinian narrative is fundamentally untenable. The Israelis are the indigenous people, kicked out of their land against their will by the Romans, and then later the Arabs invaded without justification and stole Israel's land from Rome.

Think of the land like a piece of artwork. A thief (the Romans) steals it from the rightful owner (the Israelis). Then a second thief (the Arabs) steals it from the first thief. Then that second thief keeps the artwork for a long time. The second thief still has no right to the artwork. It still belongs to the original owner.

I usually try to avoid dealing directly with narrative issues because the facts lead to Israel having an absolute right to all of the land, and my preference is both parties sharing the land in peace.

But regardless, by rejecting peace with Israel, the Palestinians give Israel the right to use force in return. And that means that the ultimate outcome is going to be whatever Israel wants, imposed on the Palestinians by military force.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
From the simple fact that the international community has declared Israel's settlements on Palestinian lands as illegal should be enough information for any clear minded person to see who is breaking the laws. It's a very simple issue.

The law says that the Palestinians are not allowed to wage perpetual war on Israel. The Palestinians broke the law and now Israel gets to keep the land.

Simple indeed.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 10:43 pm
@oralloy,
They're fighting for their land with rocks.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 10:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
They're fighting for their land with rocks.

The Palestinians have no land. They were repeatedly offered land though. All they had to do is agree to peace with Israel.

The Palestinians' choice to keep attacking Israel means that Israel now gets to impose whatever they want through military force.

If the Palestinians are really lucky they will be allowed to keep most of Area A.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2016 11:51 pm
@oralloy,
And again, and again...
0 Replies
 
 

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