12
   

Obama and the Targeted Killing Program: What Would the Godfather Say?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 02:49 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Well, I (and if your honest, you too) don't see everyone's opinion as equally valid.

Some people's opinions are wrong/stupid/self-serving.

You choose to only tolerate opposing opinions when they oppose conservative opinions, not your own. When folks oppose your opinions, they are wrong (or worse).



What I'm saying is that although what you're saying may play out well with the folks back home, I doubt they'll see it that way in downtown Jakarta or Caracas or anywhere outside the Western Hemisphere. Targetted assasinations with no political oversight sets a precedent.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 08:56 pm
@izzythepush,
And I will repeat myself...I don't care how the people in Jakarta feel about this topic any more than you care about how the people in Dallas care about opinions you voice.

The people in Jakarta are, perhaps, not capable of saving the lives of Islamist targeted Americans, but they are likely not inclined to.

If someone is of the opinion that it is reasonable to indiscriminately slaughter Western innocents, I'm not prepared to acknowledge such an opinion as equivalent to mine that contends killing such murderers is just.

You draw distinctions in postions all the time when it supports your personal view of things so please spare me this bullshite about the universal value of POV.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 02:21 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You may not give a damn about what anyone outside the USA thinks, but you seem to be of the very naive impression that those outside America will go along with your thinking. The assassination of Alexander Litvinenko can easily be justified by the Russians, because it's no different from what America does. The killing of Iranian dissidents in Iraq is also justifiable.

You're very big on freedom of speech, unless you're a Moslem in which case you'll be killed, and your children will be killed as well, no trial, nothing.

Quote:
The next, his administration is maintaining a stony silence over the murder of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, the 16-year-old American born in Denver who was killed by a drone in Yemen in 2011. His father, Anwar (also American), was an Islamist cleric – killed by a drone a few weeks earlier.


Quote:
According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, between 2004 and 2013 drone strikes have killed up to 893 civilians (including 176 children) in Pakistan, 178 civilians (including 37 children) in Yemen, and 57 civilians (including three children) in Somalia (while these started under Bush they were accelerated under Obama). According to the New York Times, his ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, complained to colleagues that "he didn't realise his main job was to kill people", a colleague said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/10/obama-gun-control-drones-killer

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 06:36 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I note North Korea has just detonated a huge nuclear device. I suppose that's justified because if the leader of the free world doesn't abide by international law, why should anyone else?

Quote:
North Korea has carried out its third, most powerful nuclear test despite UN warnings, and said "even stronger" action might follow.

It described the test as a "self-defensive measure" necessitated by the "continued hostility" of the US.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21421841
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 07:18 am
@izzythepush,
In an effort to 'level the playing field' and make things 'fair' Obama is planning to sell NK some of our missile technology.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 08:10 pm
@izzythepush,
You keep digging a deeper hole.

I certainly don't think "those outside of America will go along with my thinking," and I don't care whether they do or not. Can I be clearer?

Irrespective of whatever America does or does not do, Russia would have assasinated Litvinenko. Now who is being naive? That they may now try and draw some sort of moral equivalence between murdering a Putin critic with our drone program is of little import... except to folks like you.

Does anyone really believe Litvineko was planning terrorist violence in Russia?

It's foolish and self-defeating for the West to avoid getting tough because dictatorships will claim moral equivalence.

Again, there has never been any indication that you honor the credibility of personally opposing opinions and yet you seem to want to insist that America must when it comes to the opinions of well known miscreants and enemies.

Why Obama ordered the killing of Awlaki the younger is certainly a valid question which the Administration should be prepared to answer.

I can support the general concept of the drone program without giving Obama free reign to kill anyone.





H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 08:14 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I note North Korea has just detonated a huge nuclear device.


Remove your blinders, there is much more going on here than 1st meets the eye.

Research the type and size of the device and what countries assisted North Korea.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 08:17 pm
@izzythepush,
Here is the significant difference between our views:

You think there is some sort of valid international code of law which binds all nations. I think it's a fiction and should be.

North Korea provacatively testing it's nukes is not important because they may have violated international law, it's important because it is thumbing its national nose at the US and the West.

None of the major powers and none of the rogue nations give a **** about "international law." They use it politically.

US law should trump "international Law," when it comes to what the US does.

Same for each and every other country on this planet.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 03:34 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
So Iranian law and North Korean law trump International law. Thanks for pointing that out.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 03:46 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I can support the general concept of the drone program without giving Obama free reign to kill anyone.


It might be an idea if you explained how you think that would work. At the moment there appears to be little, if any, political oversight.

There's a real difference here in the way that America condemned the SAS killing of IRA terrorists in Gibraltar, yet feels entitled to kill the child of a cleric whose main crime was persuading others to kill Americans.

You need to bear in mind that America's global dominance has got a limited shelf life, and when other nations, notably China, become dominant, America's words and deeds will come back to bite it on the arse.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 07:09 pm
@izzythepush,
I'm sure that's what they think, which is what seems to meaningful to you.

My comment, was that it does when it comes to what the US does, something you seem to have willfully ignored.

Is this in some way "unfair?"

Of course, but so what?

When North Korea and Iran has the support of a very large segment of powerful states, or become very powerful states themselves, their laws will, likely, trump international law. Not likely to happen though.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 07:11 pm
@izzythepush,
And...if you actually followed what I have written on this topic, you would know that I support congressional oversight of the program... Note that this doesn't mean oversight by the UN, the Brits, or the Iranians.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 08:31 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
None of the major powers and none of the rogue nations ...


They are one and the same thing.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Feb, 2013 01:20 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
My comment, was that it does when it comes to what the US does, something you seem to have willfully ignored.


That's a sentence worthy of BillRM. What am I supposed to have wilfully ignored?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 07/28/2021 at 11:51:46