46
   

Lola at the Coffee House

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 May, 2013 11:23 pm
@BillW,
One of th problems with reinforcing vertical walls is that such reinforcement hasto recognize that , a the wind increases in jumping storm status to F5, the entire storm acts like a FLUID due to the contained soils and debris. So the residual enrgy that is available is to the 6th power of the increase in wind speed. Pyramids may work.
I heard that debris was coming down in the next three counties east of Moore
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 May, 2013 11:23 pm
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
"I've always been told our soil is not good for basements," says Russell Benson, an Oklahoma City real estate agent on Trulia, in response to a prospective buyer asking why basements were so rare in Oklahoma. "I have sold a few older homes that had basements, but they were never in that great of shape."

We don't have basements in AZ either, and I've heard it's because the ground is so hard.

But I also thought it was because we don't get tornados. Oklahoma, gets tornados.
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 May, 2013 11:26 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Many, and going towards most, newspapers now have paywalls. The New York Times gives anyone who can connect online ten articles a month (I was used to reading upwards of two hundred) and LA Times give you 15, as of now. I save those for Jonathan Gold and Russ Parsons articles. My last hometown of something like 30,000 population's quite miserable newspaper won't let me click on more than 5x a month.

Have you tried logging in using a Private Window in Firefox? That's a paywall workaround for the Phx paper's 19 monthly limit, at least.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 May, 2013 11:31 pm
bump
0 Replies
 
Lola
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 12:29 am
Well the storms in Texas didn't produce any tornados. I was a little worried having, yesterday, watched on film that EF 5 tornado in Moore grow from a little, survivable tornado into a monstrous tornado in 3 minutes. But we just got a lot of rain, which we needed and strong winds. I was sure watching the weather reports from 2:30 to 5 PM. But we're safe for now. I'm so sorry for those in Moore who lost loved ones, especially the children.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 03:39 am
@Lola,
I have heard it's pretty much over now and that the 90 some is now 24 but true Lola, so horrible that the majority were children, just so sad.

Glad you are ok... and safe..

It's a scary thing.

I need a champagne please, 12hrs shift can't think, need to un-wind...

I am also hungry don't ask for much now do I but I don't know what the heck I feel like eating at 7pm. Only that I don't want to cook Sad

I love cooking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No, not tonight ......................and so, Wasssshhhh please what do you suggest?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 08:35 am
Wassau, I need coffee ASAP!
http://www.e-forwards.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/lemons.jpeg
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 09:16 am
@BillW,
Thanks, that's what I was getting at, as California's codes sharpened up as people got smarter re earthquakes. I mention steel connectors as they are what I am used to for tieing roofs to posts, etc. I'm also only really used to remods in older houses - and that was a while ago now.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 09:25 am
@Ticomaya,
No, because I don't have Firefox (I'm a scaredy cat re upsetting my finicky elderly computer with something new). But that's interesting and might get me to try it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 09:29 am
@farmerman,
Interesting post, farmer, I'm going to save it and try and read up.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 10:48 am
I've just been looking through this week's Time magazine, and came across this article.


Well, I certainly want to keep my aging brain sharp, so I'll follow that advice.

Wassau, I'd like a green salad with chicken, oranges, and walnuts, with a toasted sesame and extra virgin olive oil dressing, please.
http://www.eatingwell.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/standard/recipes/SA7565A.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 11:03 am
It seems obvious to me, on the basis of Pavlovian principles, that those of us who get to do "to camera" reporting from Moore cannot possibly not enjoy destructive tornadoes.

Sky News alone has four people on the ground along with the technical staff.
0 Replies
 
Lola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 11:28 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
One of the problems with reinforcing vertical walls is that such reinforcement hasto recognize that , as the wind increases in jumping storm status to F5, the entire storm acts like a FLUID due to the contained soils and debris. So the residual enrgy that is available is to the 6th power of the increase in wind speed.


Interesting fm. That explains how cement slab foundations can disappear. As sad as the horrible insident is, the power of the storm is awesome.
0 Replies
 
Lola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 11:34 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
"I've always been told our soil is not good for basements," says Russell Benson, an Oklahoma City real estate agent on Trulia, in response to a prospective buyer asking why basements were so rare in Oklahoma. "I have sold a few older homes that had basements, but they were never in that great of shape."


Quote:
We don't have basements in AZ either, and I've heard it's because the ground is so hard.
But I also thought it was because we don't get tornados. Oklahoma, gets tornados.


Yes, Oklahoma does have tornadoes. So maybe the real estate agent's response to the prospective buyer had more to do with wanting to make a sale than with the entire truth. Plenty of people in Oklahoma have storm cellars or safe rooms. I'll bet those who rebuild in Moore will include a storm celler.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 02:28 pm
@ossobuco,
osso, I'll share my NY Times with you.
Quote:
The New York Times
May 21, 2013
Why No Safe Room to Run To? Cost and Plains Culture
By JOHN SCHWARTZ

The Web site for the City of Moore, Okla., recommends “that every residence have a storm safe room or an underground cellar.” It says below-ground shelters are the best protection against tornadoes.

But no local ordinance or building code requires such shelters, either in houses, schools or businesses, and only about 10 percent of homes in Moore have them.

Nor does the rest of Oklahoma, one of the states in the storm belt called Tornado Alley, require them — despite the annual onslaught of deadly and destructive twisters like the one on Monday, which killed at least 24 people, injured hundreds and eliminated entire neighborhoods.

It is a familiar story, as well, in places like Joplin, Mo., and across the Great Plains and in the Deep South, where tornadoes are a seasonal threat but government regulation rankles.

In 2011, a monster tornado razed large parts of Joplin, killing 160 people in a state that had no storm-shelter requirements. The city considered requiring shelters in rebuilt or new homes but decided that doing so would be “cost prohibitive” because the soil conditions make building basements expensive, said the assistant city manager, Sam Anselm. Even so, he estimated that half the homes that had been rebuilt included underground shelters. Schools were being rebuilt with safe rooms, he said.

In Moore, the Web site explains that the city has no community shelter because a 15-minute warning is not enough time to get to safety and because, “overall, people face less risk by taking shelter in a reasonably well-constructed residence.”

This is generally true, but not for a storm like Monday’s milewide tornado, which was a terrible reminder of a tornado that caused extensive damage on May 3, 1999.

Curtis McCarty, a member of the Oklahoma Uniform Building Code Commission and a builder himself, said the twister on Monday would have defeated attempts to resist it above ground. “You cannot build a structure that’s going to take a direct hit from a tornado like that that’s going to stand,” he said.

The city’s Web site sounds tones that, in retrospect, might seem implausibly optimistic. It says the experience in 1999 — “an extremely unique event weatherwise” — meant that the standard “shelter in place” methods of protection were adequate. If another storm comes, “there’s only a less than 1 percent chance of it being as strong and violent as what we experienced” before.

Larry Graves, a project manager with Downey Consulting, an engineering company in Oklahoma City that works with schools, said buildings had been upgraded with safe rooms in a piecemeal way in recent years. “You’re seeing more of it, but it’s a big funding item,” he said, noting that a school district might reinforce a large common bathroom with concrete or build an extra-strong gymnasium as a shelter.

Without added protection, Mr. Graves said, the drill is roughly the same as it was when he was a schoolboy 40 years ago: “They move you into the hallway, and you stay there tucked up and wait it out.”

Construction standards in Moore have been studied extensively. In a 2002 study published in the journal of the American Meteorological Society, Timothy P. Marshal, an engineer in Dallas, suggested that “the quality of new home construction generally was no better than homes built prior to the tornado” in 1999.

Few homes built in the town after the storm were secured to their foundations with bolted plates, which greatly increase resistance to storms; instead, most were secured with the same kinds of nails and pins that failed in 1999. Just 6 of 40 new homes had closet-size safe rooms.

Mayor Glenn Lewis of Moore said that since then, the town had strengthened building codes, including a requirement that new homes incorporate hurricane braces. The city has also aggressively promoted the construction of safe rooms and other measures, with more than $12 million from state and federal emergency management funds to subsidize safe-room construction by offering a $2,000 rebate, said Albert Ashwood, the director of the Oklahoma Department of Emergency Management. Still, he said, it has been several years since Moore has received new financing for the program.

About a year and a half ago, Mr. McCarty, the builder, spoke to a group of Oklahoma legislators who were considering mandating shelters for new homes, he recalled. But no legislation was proposed, he said, because of the bad economy. A small, prefabricated sunken shelter can cost $4,000, he said, and “mandating another three or four thousand dollars on every new home can really add up when you’re trying to keep houses affordable.”

Houses in Oklahoma, Mr. McCarty said, are usually built on slabs without basements or crawl spaces because the land is flat and the weather is temperate enough that digging a deep foundation is not necessary, as it is with homes built in the Northeast, where the temperatures regularly dip below freezing.

“When you look at the flat land, and the amount it would cost to excavate and remove the dirt, the cost of the foundation to build a basement just adds a substantial amount to the cost of a new home,” Mr. McCarty said.

Assessment calculations also discourage basement building, he said; assessors value basement square footage at half the rate of ground-level space.

Mike Gilles, a former president of the Oklahoma State Home Builders Association, said that he built safe rooms in all his custom homes, and that even many builders who build speculatively now make them standard.

But asked whether the government should require safe rooms in homes, he said, “Most homebuilders would be against that because we think the market ought to drive what people are putting in the houses, not the government.”

Mr. Anselm, the official in Joplin, said that the city had applied to Missouri for emergency funds for safe rooms, but that the state used money from the Federal Emergency Management Agency primarily for disaster relief from flooding.

Beyond expense and construction standards, there is a local attitude about tornadoes that borders on temerity. There is a joke among Oklahomans that when the storm sirens sound, instead of taking cover, everyone goes outside and looks for the storm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/us/shelter-requirements-resisted-in-tornado-alley.html?hpw
0 Replies
 
vonny
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 02:41 pm
Forgive me if this is a totally stupid question, but I'm curious about the houses in Oklahoma - are they built of wood instead of brick and if so, why? I didn't see any bricks in the debris left after the tornado, and wondered if there was some specific reason why this is so!
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 02:51 pm
@vonny,
A large number of houses have brick veneer. These are in the middle class neighborhoods. But, the only interlocking I know of is a fairly small metal strip that seems to me to be there to keep the wall from falling over. Even the next layer is a compression panel board (usually pink or blue) with some insulation rating. The bricks are usually only half way up on the middle class homes - then finished off with siding of some kind.

Understand that a factor of EF5 tornado rating is that it takes everything down to the ground. We were warned that if you could not get below ground - leave.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 02:57 pm
"Few homes built in the town after the storm were secured to their foundations with bolted plates, which greatly increase resistance to storms; instead, most were secured with the same kinds of nails and pins that failed in 1999."

Yeah, Firefly. This was part of my point - the steel connectors..

I take it that wouldn't help in F5, but maybe where there are lower forces. (Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, but interested, especially in some of Farmerman's musings.)
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 03:01 pm
@BillW,
This tornado was different in that the storm formed and 3 minutes later the tornado was created. This is fast.

BTW ossobuco, the sill and top connectors used for earthquakes are being looked at as the standard for home building from here on out. May add a thousand or so $ to final cost. But, what about homes already built? Mine was build in 1935.......
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 03:14 pm
@ossobuco,
Oh yes, I almost forgot. This guy (he was from NOAA at the University of Oklahoma, Norman) was talking about filling in the holes in the bricks also. Guess this could make a lot of difference. All the things farmerman was talking about, I have heard them mention the past few days.

Then, to finish his talk off, he said, the F5 tornados are less than 2% of all tornados that occur. Most occur in sparsely populated areas and finally, the ones that hit populated areas, the chance of them hitting you is very, very small. Of course, the chance of one hitting me is much, much larger than it hitting you.

The one that worries me is the one at night, cause I am asleep and can't see. The first one I ever remember was when I was about 4 or 5 years old and it came in the middle of the night, my first freight train. Lived in Weatherford, Texas at that time.
 

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