56
   

How can something come from nothing?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 07:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Even if it could be established by logic that at least one god must exist (which it cannot)...but even if it could, how does one logically go from that to..."A GOD WHICH MUST BE WORSHIPED AND OBEYED?"

How does one get from agnostic to absolute dogma ('which it cannot')?
How does one get from 'I cannot prove a God to myself ' to 'therefore no one can'.
Sounds like unbound ego/hubris to me.

And whether God should be worshipped and obeyed could only be determined after one has met him.
0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 08:00 am
@The Anointed,
How the frack did you jump back into the Bible on your diatribe back there?

Let me give you an argument not just against God but against consciousness being the cause of anything:

God as classically defined in the Abrahamic tradition has no origin, it is eternal, thus God could not chose ANY of his own properties. God did not create God! God therefore if there was one would not be free to determine which properties it has or it has not...in sum a puppet aware of his own unfolding in Reality without any free will!

Conscientiousness is NEVER an ULTIMATE cause.

On the other hand "Ultimism" which I accept has nothing to do with "ANIMISM".

The Spinoza's "God", NATURE, needs not to be aware as that which is everything has no need to speak, think or troubleshoot "problems" within spacetime. "Problem solving"/thinking is for incomplete forms of being which do have an epistemic problem or limit. A totality has no such problems and no such needs...

Get your Santa Claus's God out of any attempt at a Metaphysical Logical conversation...it is a FRAUD!

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 12:50 pm
@Albuquerque,
Quote:
God did not create God!

That may be true. But by the same logic, Man did not create Man.
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 04:33 pm
@Leadfoot,
I certainly did not create myself nor my parents had any say on who I was up to be!
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 05:49 pm
Maybe if I'd said 'Mankind'
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2021 05:06 am
@Leadfoot,
Did "mankind" assemble in one big session to deliberate on my ought to be nature? How cool...
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2021 06:27 am
Man-kind. The kind of being that is man.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 09:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Fank Apisa wrote….. I have never said I "believe" that not one god can exist.

These are your exact words in the post that is referred to; “Even if it could be established by logic that at least one god must exist (which it cannot)..”

So then, what you have said, is that it can never be proven that one god must exist. If you believe that God can never be proven to exist, THEN, in reality, what you have said is, “I "believe" that not one god can exist, because it cannot ever be established by logic that at least one god must exist.”

Well then, I believe that the Eternal energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees when the singularity of origin was spatially separated in the event that is called the ‘BIG BANG’ has become this entire universe and all the life forms herein and is the collective consciousness of all that it (The eternal energy that can neither be created or destroyed) has become.

If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that ‘it,’ [The Eternal Energy] has become, the collective consciousness of all that it is.

Jeremiah 23: 23-24; “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see him. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth? He has eyes and ears everywhere throughout the universe that is he.

Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy which manifests itself as this living universe and is all that exists and is, ’THE GREAT THOUGHT,’ the collective consciousness of all that exists.

At any given point in time, you are no more than inches away from a spider, fly, ant, or any other of the many information gatherers of the eternal, who is all that exists.

In the days of Paul, it was believed by faith alone, that all visible matter in the universe was built by the gathering together of smaller and invisible particles. Today we know this to be a fact, Matter is but the gathering together of invisible molecules, created by the gathering together of invisible atoms, which themselves are created from the gathering of invisible sub-atomic particles that are formed from Photons or wave particles, which are not particles at all, although generally regarded as discrete stable elementary particles, having zero mass, no electric charge, yet carrying angular and linear momentum. . . . . . . . . From the seemingly nothingness was the world created.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists have revealed that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of “INVISIBLE ENERGY”, not tangible matter.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like “A GREAT THOUGHT” than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

Who do you think, is "THE MOST HIGH' to have developed within the GREAT THOUGHT? Mankind, who developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, or 'THE SON OF MAN,' who according to our erroneous concept of one directional time, is still developing within the androgynous body of Mankind?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 10:09 pm
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 10:36 pm
@edgarblythe,
Billy sang.... I've got a song
I ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
I've got a song
I ain't got no melody
I' ma gonna sing it to my friends.

Does Billy reveal who those friends are? Apparently he does, his friends appear to be those without morals who want the bad guys to win once in while


[Verse 2]
I've got a story
Ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
I've got a story
Ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 03:32 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:



Fank Apisa wrote….. I have never said I "believe" that not one god can exist.

These are your exact words in the post that is referred to; “Even if it could be established by logic that at least one god must exist (which it cannot)..”

So then, what you have said, is that it can never be proven that one god must exist. If you believe that God can never be proven to exist, THEN, in reality, what you have said is, “I "believe" that not one god can exist, because it cannot ever be established by logic that at least one god must exist.”

Well then, I believe that the Eternal energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees when the singularity of origin was spatially separated in the event that is called the ‘BIG BANG’ has become this entire universe and all the life forms herein and is the collective consciousness of all that it (The eternal energy that can neither be created or destroyed) has become.

If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that ‘it,’ [The Eternal Energy] has become, the collective consciousness of all that it is.

Jeremiah 23: 23-24; “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see him. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth? He has eyes and ears everywhere throughout the universe that is he.

Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy which manifests itself as this living universe and is all that exists and is, ’THE GREAT THOUGHT,’ the collective consciousness of all that exists.

At any given point in time, you are no more than inches away from a spider, fly, ant, or any other of the many information gatherers of the eternal, who is all that exists.

In the days of Paul, it was believed by faith alone, that all visible matter in the universe was built by the gathering together of smaller and invisible particles. Today we know this to be a fact, Matter is but the gathering together of invisible molecules, created by the gathering together of invisible atoms, which themselves are created from the gathering of invisible sub-atomic particles that are formed from Photons or wave particles, which are not particles at all, although generally regarded as discrete stable elementary particles, having zero mass, no electric charge, yet carrying angular and linear momentum. . . . . . . . . From the seemingly nothingness was the world created.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists have revealed that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of “INVISIBLE ENERGY”, not tangible matter.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like “A GREAT THOUGHT” than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

Who do you think, is "THE MOST HIGH' to have developed within the GREAT THOUGHT? Mankind, who developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, or 'THE SON OF MAN,' who according to our erroneous concept of one directional time, is still developing within the androgynous body of Mankind?



I HAVE NEVER, EVER...HERE OR IN ANY OTHER FORUM WHERE I HAVE PARTICIPATED SAID THAT NOT ONE GOD CAN EXIST. I HAVE NEVER EVEN INTIMATED THAT IN ANY WAY.

If you are not able to deal with the English language, discussions like this are not something in which you should engage.

It is not possible to establish by logic that at least one god MUST exist. That is not saying that no gods can exist.

Language is not that difficult. But it must be mastered BEFORE you get involved in these kinds of discussions.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 04:50 am
@Frank Apisa,
If it is not possible to establish by logic that at least one god MUST exist, then pray tell, 'BY WHAT' means is it possible to establish that at least one god must exist?
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 07:38 am
@The Anointed,
That's the kind of question that got me on Frank's ignore list.

My objection to his statement is that it insists that everyone must have the limitations that he does.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 08:13 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

If it is not possible to establish by logic that at least one god MUST exist, then pray tell, 'BY WHAT' means is it possible to establish that at least one god must exist?


No only is it not possible to establish that at least one god MUST exist using logic...it also cannot be done using reason, or science, or math.

I suspect there is NO WAY to establish that at least one god MUST exist...although some of you theists fringe cases want to pretend that a god has revealed itself to you personally.

Okay.

Some people want to think they are Napoleon Bonaparte.

Takes all kinds!



Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 12:54 pm
So anyone who thinks they see scientific or logical evidence of a creative force is delusional. Got it Frank.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 03:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
And some atheists like to think they are agnostic.

Science proves that the eternal who has neither beginning or end has become this universe and all within, and is the collective consciousness of all the life forms that the only eternal has become.

Now you run along and have a good think about your erroneous belief.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2021 03:40 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

And some atheists like to think they are agnostic.

Science proves that the eternal who has neither beginning or end has become this universe and all within, and is the collective consciousness of all the life forms that the only eternal has become.

Now you run along and have a good think about your erroneous belief.


I do not have any "beliefs" about whether or not there are any gods...but I am willing to listen to your blind guesses about the question. I am also willing to listen to your blind guesses about the nature of any god that might exist...what pleases it; what offends it; what it demands; and what it does as reward or punishment for obedience or disobedience.

For you to suppose that science somehow "proves" your blind guesses to be correct is a laugh.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2021 04:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Science proves that the eternal who has neither beginning or end has become this universe
Science "Proves" nothing of that sort. Science agnostically compiles evidence and, so far, evidence strongly favors a"Creatorless" pattern of life. A creator who would so bungle the appearances and constructions of life as we see on earth couldnt really be called :Intelligent"
Your groups entire belief system is based solely upon personal "incredulity" not evidence. Your entire litany was first penned by desert primitives and your kind has been busy since, trying to align what it says with a somethig that "sounds" scientific.
Your coining of "eternal energy" was a brilliant piece of phrase mastering. It sounds so "Ecclesiastical" when compared to"Dark Matter" or "Dark Enrgy:

0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2021 06:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
So, you say that you are willing to listen to that you erroneous believe are my wrong guesses. Righto, then listen to this ……. A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe, from which singularity our eternal oscillating and ever evolving universe is resurrected to continue on in that everlasting process.

The best and most accepted scientific theory as to the creation of this universe was when the singularity, which was the universe in its earliest stage, was spatially separated in the event called the Big Bang and the eternal electromagnetic energy that can never be created nor ever destroyed, was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, or, according to scientific measurements or 180 million trillion, trillion degrees Fahrenheit, and that which we perceive as matter cannot exist in the temperature.

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed.

Being formless and void, having neither constant shape or mass, that eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, began to change from pure energy to that which we perceive as matter, until it has become the universe we see today and all the life forms herein, and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that ‘it,’ [The Eternal Energy] has become, the collective consciousness of all that it is.

The quantum of that energy that has neither beginning or end, is photons, which is generally regarded as a discrete elementary particle having neither mass or electric charge but carrying angular and linear moment, as said previously, the universe at the time of the Big Bang was formless and void.

Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy which manifests itself as this living universe and is all that exists and is, ’The Great Thought,’ the collective consciousness of all that exists. At any given point in time, you are no more than inches away from a spider, fly, ant, or any other of the many information gatherers of the eternal, who is all that exists.

Jeremiah 23: 23-24; “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see him. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth? He has eyes and ears everywhere throughout the universe that is he.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nothing-solid-everything-energy-scientists-explain-world-djurisic

Excerpts from the link supplied.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists have revealed that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of “INVISIBLE ENERGY”, not tangible matter.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like 'A GREAT THOUGHT' than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

I will continue this tomorrow, God willing and time permitting.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2021 07:22 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

So, you say that you are willing to listen to that you erroneous believe are my wrong guesses.


I did not even read the rest of that bullshit.

You simply are not intelligent enough to understand the English language...as evidenced by this first comment. I am continuing to comment to you solely out of a loyalty to the forum to participate.

AT NO POINT DID I EVER SAY THAT I "BELIEVE" (OR SUPPOSE) YOUR GUESSES ABOUT GODS ARE WRONG.

EVER!

ANYWHERE.

NOR HAVE I EVER SAID THAT ABOUT ANYONE ELSE'S GUESSES ON THE ISSUE.

I HAVE NO IDEA OF WHETHER A GOD OR GODS EXIST...NOR ABOUT THE NATURE OF ANY THAT MIGHT EXIST.

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT THROUGH THAT THICK SKULL OF YOURS?

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN TO STOP YOU FROM MAKING ASSERTIONS ABOUT ME THAT HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH WHAT I ACTUALLY WRITE?
0 Replies
 
 

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