57
   

How can something come from nothing?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 04:26 pm
@Albuquerque,
Quote:
A God within spacetime is not all knowing so it becomes a demigod and a problem solving machine regarding the future, it/he/she, itself contingent!
I don’t understand your argument against a God that I haven’t posited.
I have no disagreement with what you have said because I haven’t made any claims about 'God' other than the obviousness of his/her/its sentience.
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 04:53 pm
@Leadfoot,
Let me refresh you on "Ultimism":

0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 04:56 pm
@Leadfoot,
My argument against God is derivative from my argument against minds as ultimate sources of agency/causes and the pseudo hard problem of consciousness...
0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 05:26 pm
@Leadfoot,
My business is, always was, interdisciplinary correlations, so lets give a small jump to Biology on this topic also:



The mindless mind of superorganims a good topic for the Biology approach to Sociology! This one is also good to think about politics and power Machiavelli comes to mind but lets not complicate it even further...and by the way this guy is wrong he doesn't go all in on the topic!

0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 05:30 pm
Lets go deeper (for the ones willing to know):

0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 05:36 pm
@Leadfoot,
Finally let me pull my own "God complex"...on this forum you won't find anyone even remotely close to my position of understanding Reality, I am well aware of it and still I chose/needed obscurantism when I could have been lecturing at a classical institution as I had the chance and promise when I was younger!

I know I am really good at what I do, and still I give it no value whatsoever, I laugh at my own weak instincts on intellectual supremacy, as I am well aware I am just a sophisticated monkey!
0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2021 10:24 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I don’t understand your argument against a God that I haven’t posited.
I have no disagreement with what you have said because I haven’t made any claims about 'God' other than the obviousness of his/her/its sentience.


Let me address this directly as it seems you miss the whole thing...

"Sentience" is based on change, on the flow of time that provides change.
Outside time there is no change to the whole. No sentience is needed nor any problem solving!

So developments on Theology leave you with 2 choices, either a demigod which is plausible statistically as I don't think Homo Sapiens has to be on the top of the intellectual food chain Universe wise, or a Rock God outside spacetime which is not even a cause but an holistic abstraction as a Set is, the Alpha and the Omega...

These days many Theologians are going for the demigod option, a weaker, not all knowing God within spacetime. In sum they are going with Aliens, they just don't use that name yet!
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 12:57 am
@Albuquerque,
A weaker demigod…But that would make that God an agnostic….who is unsure whether he was right or wrong to assume what he assumed….lol….you mean a BS god?
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 01:10 am
@Jasper10,
...as I pointed out way earlier in this thread demigods people and lions as agents all go through the same kind of problem solving parameters...

I don't know what kind of "god" a Lion needs to believe in, or what kind of meet/prey paradise he dreams about, but I don't see that much of a difference anyway.

A demigod in his own domain of perception and operations would have a "god" problem also granted.

As I concluded the kind of Ultimist God as in the old testament description that is POSSIBLE or conceivable Logically speaking is a ROCK and NOT a mind!

What I can't do is is get into your mind and make you see why if you don't get why...I don't do miracles yet.
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 01:29 am
@Albuquerque,
...you see Jasper the problem of "god" is a problem of closure, resolution, digestion, in our distinct domains of operations as different species operating at different layers of Reality with different phenomenal perceptual needs although and I have to point out this, with the same fundamental needs structurally, so higher and smaller domains of intellectual perception still have a sort of fractal communality to it when it comes to the pillars of Biology that are the same to any living creature.

In my world mind my need for closure is the Spinoza's god, which satisfies perfectly the same need of awe you have.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 01:35 am
@Albuquerque,
Well a lot of people think they are BS Gods then…is that what you mean? Are these the same BS gods that assume the ROCK and not a mind thing?
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 02:49 am
@Jasper10,
BS gods still would have a huge, humongous attractive power to creatures like you and me in the scale you would have to a snail...don't underestimate what they could do for us as a species or even at an individual level...if they wanted to you wouldn't be able to resist to any of their "traps" or "candy".

Moreover as our concept of "God" finds its boundaries in our Anthropocentric intellectual limit an alien demigod would surpass by far our most wildest imagination on the most intelligent people on Earth enough to trump our current small concept of a God...the false messiah would trump our false own messiah by orders of magnitude in alluring capabilities. I would go as far as to say they would have to downgrade their own concept of a God to adapt it to us by metaphor so that we could find it attractive or irresistible.

PS - We don't need an Infinite big hammer to be smashed, one bigger then ours suffices!
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 03:08 am
@Albuquerque,
Or there is the possibility that we have 2 off BS gods BS each other….I don’t do BS very well….
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 03:15 am
@Jasper10,
I will give you an example this guy here is trying to get were I am at but clings to phenomenology instead of Ontology to save the concept in a minor God. He holds onto a phenomenological god with a mind that is not all knowing so that "he" as an agent can interact with us...this guy is trying to ditch the old testament God because he is aware of the sort of argument a person like me would put up.

Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 03:20 am
@Jasper10,
Please understand that the word "God" here only needs to mean something that surpasses our own comprehension of the world as a species.

Such a concept is perfectly statistically plausible as why would mankind be the most advanced lifeform in the whole Universe? Why would we win the lottery of being at the top of the intellectual food chain? Most likely we are in the middle average as most species are...

As I explained a real BS demigod is good enough to smash us intellectually to the point we would ditch our own wildest dreams of our own idealized perception of God.

PS - With the exception of a few strong and stubborn minds even most of the atheist scientists worldwide would fall on their knees and believe all sorts of BS if an advanced Alien lifeform presented itself to us as God. We wouldn't be able to counter it intellectually more then your dog can against you.

One of the big lies about scientists is that they are special as human beings...most of them are just common folk with very small imaginations and very little understanding of Reality outside of their very specific field of expertise...hell if the web as shown us something is that the vast majority of them is neither wise nor literate holistically speaking.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2021 06:24 am
@Albuquerque,
Quote:
Let me address this directly as it seems you miss the whole thing...

"Sentience" is based on change, on the flow of time that provides change.
Outside time there is no change to the whole. No sentience is needed nor any problem solving!


It sounds lonely out there.
But at least organized religion is onboard with you. How many times have I been told that 'God does not need anything! He is perfect' etc.. etc..

Quote:
These days many Theologians are going for the demigod option, a weaker, not all knowing God within spacetime. In sum they are going with Aliens, they just don't use that name yet!
You got that right. Farmer doesn’t recognize theology when it’s his own.

And that verse about the 'religious' “Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.” is so right on point.

But honestly, I’m not trying to confine God to any dimension or exempt him from anything except non-sentience. I think that is our basic disagreement. I don’t think he is a rock.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2021 12:35 am
@Albuquerque,
So you are saying that the unsure BS demi god/s claim is that imperfection is the way forward?….well it might be as a possibility but then it might not be….

As I said previously,I don’t do BS very well…..maybe perfection is the way forward.

As I’m unsure, I think I will go with the perfection route myself.
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2021 01:11 am
@Jasper10,
Minds/problem solvers, NECESSITATE epistemic uncertainty/Imperfection is. was, has been, the WHOLE POINT being made all along here!
Glad you got that right...

PS - How shall I put this in the least amount of words possible so that it is crystal clear, let see:

When in a state of Perfection there is NO REQUIREMENT of any ACTION, NO PROBLEM SOLVING, no thinking, no talking, no communicating, no exchange of information!

A perfect anything does NOT NEED a Mind, period!

(The smartest Theologians you have seen in the previous videos I posted are ditching the old testament perfect God in favour of a more tangible, weaker, more Anthropomorphised definition, precisely to dodge the problem)
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2021 01:21 am
@Albuquerque,
Of course imperfection and uncertainty are a reality….I also agree that it is a possibility that this situation is an ……is,was,has been scenario according to the BS demigod/s theory….

However,

They are called BS demigod/s for a reason aren’t they….
0 Replies
 
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2021 01:32 am
@Albuquerque,
Shall I make a cartoon on it? I can try...

Guy - Hey God how are you feeling?

God - Perfect I am fine!

Guy - Do you need anything? Want to talk?

God - No I don't need anything I am perfect!

Guy - ...but but, I am not sure how to interact with you, what shall I do?

God - I know already what you will say and what I will answer, let me be, all is perfect!

Guy - Mkay...you doing something there while you being perfect?

God - No I am a rock and you are speaking to yourself with your annoying epistemic problems I am not here!

PS - The point is the requirement of being a mind is having problems to solve, not knowing everything, needing action, needing to search, need to exchange information, communicate, strive, inquire...perfection throws all that out!
0 Replies
 
 

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