How can something come from nothing?

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Follow this line of reasoning for a second will ya?

Again lets for the sake of argument grant your Abrahamic God.

1 - God has attributes/properties.
2 - God is an agent with these attributes.
3 - God is eternal.
4 - God did not chose his own attributes. They are Necessary to his ultimate existence.
5 - God has no say on who he is or how to behave as God must do from what God is deemed to be by his own nature.
6 - The Reality of God's attributes is not the result of any agency, rather a brut fact.
7 - Therefore The Reality of any and everything God "designed", the realities that follow from God, were not the result of God's Free Will as again God must do what God is meant to do. They are a brut a priori fact!

8 - Finally a question, where does this leave the concept of Agency at large?

...I rather have the abstract mathematical version!

The argument results in a very simple conclusion:

1 - MINDS are not the creators of Reality as minds own Reality either are the result of something else which is not a mind, or minds are a brut fact that was not chosen by any other mind.
2 - If Mind could not create mind before mind existed, Mind did not create anything else, as everything else is a subset of the attributes of Mind that mind did not chose to be.
3 - Mind follows Nature and not the other way around!

PS - In millennial style, Boom, mic drop!

That’s a hard act to follow Fil. But remember we have to agree on a common meaning of 'God'. Several of the attributes you ascribe to the ‘Abrahamic God' may be due to various dogmas of various religions. I do not embrace any of those. For the purposes of discussion could we use 'God' as the character in the Bible?

To clarify what I mean, attributes 4, 5, and 6 on your list bear no resemblance to the God I read about in the Bible. (I use KJV if it matters). In fact, they contradict many things said there.

But first, can we agree on that 'God'?

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@Leadfoot,

So lets see if I get this God created itself from his own bootstraps before he was?

Are you entailing that God's mind is not an a priori brut fact??? If so what was there before the unmoved mover?

...A dog is born a dog barking like a dog pissing on trees and shaking his own tail!...

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

So lets see if I get this God created itself from his own bootstraps before he was?

Are you entailing that God's mind is not an a priori brut fact??? If so what was there before the unmoved mover?

...A dog is born a dog barking like a dog pissing on trees and shaking his own tail!...

I haven’t made any of those claims of yet. I’m still waiting for your answer about which 'God' we are going to discuss. I’m only interested in the one I know, that is described in the Bible. If you are not, we can stop chasing our tails now.

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@Leadfoot,

As far as I can see you contradicted yourself...either God has a priori attributes that he did not chose to have or something someone gave them to him.
Given you at least agreed God is Eternal and the final stop point then you have to deal with this problem. I am not even innovating here, this is old news and well know to Theologians, I just did happen to get to the same conclusions many others got before me. Many of modern Theologians are now retreating from a super God to a more nuanced fragile version...one of the things many have already ditched is the fore knowledge of the future.

When it comes to God's properties being out of control of God no one has a proper counter for it but you which are not an expert claim the problem does not exist. I guess you have some reading to do...

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

As far as I can see you contradicted yourself...either God has a priori attributes that he did not chose to have or something someone gave them to him.
Given you at least agreed God is Eternal and the final stop point then you have to deal with this problem. I am not even innovating here, this is old news and well know to Theologians, I just did happen to get to the same conclusions many others got before me. Many of modern Theologians are now retreating from a super God to a more nuanced fragile version...one of the things many have already ditched is the fore knowledge of the future.

When it comes to God's properties being out of control of God no one has a proper counter for it but you which are not an expert claim the problem does not exist. I guess you have some reading to do...

You are inventing imaginary contradictions; how could there be any when I haven’t made any claims or denied any claims yet. I’m still waiting on you to agree on what 'God' we are to discuss.

The claim I HAVE made is that items 4 - 6 on your list are not necessarily Biblical claims about God. I’ll go through them if you are interested.

4 - God did not chose his own attributes. They are Necessary to his ultimate existence.

These are assertions by you, how have you established this as a claim about the Abrahamic God? The Bible does not make it. How do you know this? How do you know God did not make his own choices? The book clearly says we need to make some pretty damn important choices if we are to continue our own existence. We are told we are made in his image. Why would we be so different in having a choice? The Bible does not reflect the clockwork orange universe in your posts about reality and free will. I can’t pretend that matches the God of the Bible, even if I find the discussion interesting.

5 - God has no say on who he is or how to behave as God must do from what God is deemed to be by his own nature.

Another assertion. By what authority do you make it? There are plenty of scriptures that disagree.

6 - The Reality of God's attributes is not the result of any agency, rather a brut fact.

Another assertion, but I am honestly curious about how you came to them.

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@Leadfoot,

you guys sound like two old rabbis arguing whether Yahweh ever had to pee.

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@farmerman,

How surprising

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@Leadfoot,

ידעתי שתגיד את זה

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Again, I am not surprised

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@Leadfoot,

Case to say ...oh Gooood!
Soo God's attributes were made by God? Hahaha! No further comments...

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@farmerman,

No Farma, I granted him the Biblical God for the sake of arguing not because I believe it but because I want to show case internal inconsistencies. Pay attention!

It looks like Leadfoot is incapable of understanding God's attributes or properties cannot by definition be chosen by God...

PS - The point is, was, the REALITY of God himself is a priori, thus not chosen by God. Consequence, whatever reality follows from that first Reality is also a brut fact...and there you have it, design goes down the drain...
That is to mean God's internal structure, world, reality, properties, attributes, and behaviour, they all are the result of an a priori brut fact, which totally invalidates the concept of God as an agent with free will and volition.
God is left as the ground of existence but looses the personal characteristics people are so attached to. Might just call the ultimate rock and be done with it!

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In sum, I agree with the idea of "Ultimism" without classical Theism.

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@Albuquerque,

YOU AND LEADFOOT need to distinguish deism v theism and really discuss it with those who give a rats ass.

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Soo, lets explain this in terms that everyone can understand:

Leadfoot believes God shape himself to be before he was while he also believes God is eternal...or better God was exactly as he was from eternity but then with free will shaped himself to be exactly what he was a priori! Circular reasoning at its best Funcktastic!

This applies to any concept of "mind" creating realities by the way.
MINDS OWN REALITY IS NOT THE PRODUCT OF MIND! (Budhists be damned)

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@Albuquerque,

and that equates energy and mass , how?

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@farmerman,

His argument is as good as the argument of Lawrence Krauss that says the Universe popped from nothingness Laws Information and everything...

What are you asking about on energy and mass? I am just showcasing the inconsistencies of the classical biblical God...

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@Albuquerque,

I know, lets start with Einsteins simple but powerful equivalence equation . It simply states that "nothing" is a nonexistent concept. (or stated as an inane inequivalent (0=1)

This equation is NOT evidence free as are your and Leadfoot's kluski salads of scientistic BS.

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@farmerman,

Who needs evidence on the existence of nothingness? Are you kidding me?
My BS make no mistake is miles ahead of whatever you think you understand about reality. I find it ironic that you have no clue your whole world system is based on some unquestioned axioms...some of which are bad period. Whether you will find the time to learn why honestly I don't give a flying frack!

Let me tell you a secret among just the two of us here, I speak with you not because I think you have great insights but because I think you are one of the less stupid folk around the place...and I mean it! If my self confidence is misplaced so be it...but let me tell ya something I wouldn't be scared of a public debate with you with pears review on the spot to put in line as soon as you messed up with conceptual assumptions that you make to which you just don't have ANY valid proof!
You are not even in the loop...

The difference between you and me is that you are arrogant but not special while I am special enough to be arrogant!

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@Albuquerque,

at least my understanding of advanced math outstrips yours by many leagues per fortnight.

Feel proud that your arguments are but Rusticated SALADS. I enjoy reading you and Leadfoot trying to "out-rodomontade" each other

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How can something come from nothing?

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