How can something come from nothing?

@farmerman,

This is why I am so afraid of gene editing...much of what can be considered genetic trash can actually have a function and be useful.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I wonder if there are any other environments like underground passageways on earth before the invention of subways?Signature

See!! Tht could be some valuable research for you to find out . Rather than just acting like a smart ass, why not go a see whether London was underlain by a cavern system and that collections of mosquitoes from the various environments were made before the "Tubes"

Science doesnt know all the answers and we are often ded wrong, The IDers will never expose themselves to any discussions based upon self funded research. All their "beliefs" seem to be based on a few statements of "IMMENSE COMPLEXITY THAT NTURE IS UNABLE TO CRACK"

or"Biochemistry of a specific function begins with irreducible complexity"

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I wonder if there are any other environments like underground passageways on earth before the invention of subways?Signature

See!! Tht could be some valuable research for you to find out . Rather than just acting like a smart ass, why not go a see whether London was underlain by a cavern system and that collections of mosquitoes from the various environments were made before the "Tubes"

Science doesnt know all the answers and we are often ded wrong, The IDers will never expose themselves to any discussions based upon self funded research. All their "beliefs" seem to be based on a few statements of "IMMENSE COMPLEXITY THAT NTURE IS UNABLE TO CRACK"

or"Biochemistry of a specific function begins with irreducible complexity"

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Why do you guys alway think you have made some kind of profound point when you ask, 'Oh yeah, then who made the designer!?'.

I have no problem telling you that I have no idea. That does not change the fact that it is obvious that biological life required one.

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@Leadfoot,

youve still failed to address Watson and Crick's worldviews(especially since you brought it up)

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Notice how every IDer dodges completely the complexity of the so called "Creator" itself...they just go mute on the very core of the matter as soon as you change to God!

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@Leadfoot,

Lets grant the stupid axiom of your fairy God for a second:

Is God alive?
Is God complex?
What is the difference between biological complexity and spiritual complexity?
Finally why aren't you honest? It is baffling...you are perfectly aware that you have not answer the core of the topic!

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Why do you guys alway think you have made some kind of profound point when you ask, 'Oh yeah, then who made the designer!?'.

I have no problem telling you that I have no idea. That does not change the fact that it is obvious that biological life required one.

I am perfectly aware that the argument for God goes the other way around and that is precisely why it needs confrontation! Double criteria is annoying!!!
Since God arguably was not created and has all sorts of powers and immense complexity why can't the Universe work the same way specially in a cyclic model?

My question is simple why do we need a God?

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Lets grant the stupid axiom of your fairy God for a second:

Is God alive?
Is God complex?

. I would be happy to entertain those questions but I fear you really mean that time limit. Seriously, Let me know if you have more time for it.

Quote:

What is the difference between biological complexity and spiritual complexity?

One is for temporary use and the other is permanent. Both can be bewildering in complexity.

But you have made a jump to matters I haven’t brought up yet. We have not even discussed whether the designer is the same thing as the concept of 'God' . Then we’d have to agree on what we mean by 'God' even before that.

Quote:

Finally why aren't you honest? It is baffling...you are perfectly aware that you have not answer the core of the topic!

. Please clarify what you mean. What is 'the core'?

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@Leadfoot,

...oh believe me I love proper theology debating, I can go all the way with you, so bring it on!

Let me start with my assertions and you do the counter if you can.

God if there is one could not chose his own nature. God if there is one, HAS NO FREE WILL.

If by God one only means the ground of existence then God is no better than a rock and "spiritual" ads nothing to the idea of "material"!

Now shoot back and please stop with the pre historical tribal stuff of "us" vs "you guys"...we all in the same room here and we are all curious to getting to know more!

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

One is for temporary use and the other is permanent.

Why would anyone want a permanent anything whatever that means...not even rocks are permanent.

Eternal life is the best description I have ever heard of asking naively for hell!

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

My question is simple why do we need a God?

Again, you have made the leap to the question of - Is the designer 'God'?
That, is a great question and I’ve looked at it from many perspectives.

We do not need a God unless that is where the evidence leads.
If it does, it would possibly be very needful to know who it is. It was for me.

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
One is for temporary use and the other is permanent.

Al replied:
Why would anyone want a permanent anything whatever that means...not even rocks are permanent.

Eternal life is the best description I have ever heard of asking naively for hell!

On this 'rock', Damn right it’d be hell. That’s why I said biological life was for temporary use only.

So why would you automatically write off a life with a completely different environment without any idea of what it was. You afraid of getting trapped in a life you couldn’t stand? I can relate to that, Sooo.. well.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

youve still failed to address Watson and Crick's worldviews(especially since you brought it up)

The **** I did. I brought up their scientific research into the structure and meaning of DNA (as a coded language describing how to build the cellular machinery of proteins.).
That has ****-all to do with their world views.

I’m guessing you flew off into religious ideas as soon as I used the word 'meaning'. Again.

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@Leadfoot,

We can go Russian dolls all the way down if you want I just skipped the step.
If it wasn't God and it was an advanced Alien race or what not the question stands just the same, where did the complexity of the intermediary creator came from? You are stalling not answering!

As for a "different environment" in Heaven where Eternity was desirable tell me what it would be like? Being in a state of Cocaine overdose forever? No challenges? What? My problem with life is not disease or loss nor any more common challenge, rather is lack of proper communication between our monkey species! It saddens me to be aware that we are most certainly unfit!

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Quote:

We can go Russian dolls all the way down if you want I just skipped the step.
If it wasn't God and it was an advanced Alien race or what not the question stands just the same, where did the complexity of the intermediary creator came from? You are stalling not answering!

. One could make the same accusation about Science, no answer there either. But it would be unrealistic to write off everything Science does know because of that. I don’t think Science is stalling and neither am I.

But if you want to skip steps and get to the answer of whether the creator was 'God' or not, I have concluded that it was. That is where the evidence led me.

Quote:

As for a "different environment" in Heaven where Eternity was desirable tell me what it would be like? Being in a state of Cocaine overdose forever? No challenges? What? My problem with life is not disease or loss nor any more common challenge, rather is lack of proper communication between our monkey species! It saddens me to be aware that we are most certainly unfit!

Well, we do have something in common.
Permanent Perfect health, no crime, no pollution, no poverty - None of that would change my view of eternity on Earth either. The Society here is what makes this planet a shithole in the long run.

It’s only redeeming value is that it is diabolically perfect for its intended purpose. That was a key piece of evidence for me.

Never tried cocaine but there are drugs which can mimic the sense of well being from knowing there is something more. I can see why people get addicted. It’s probably the closest some will get to knowing God.

And Heaven. Same factor that fucks this place up could make it Heaven now.
Give me a much different society. 'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven’.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

So, how do we deal with this greater portion of the whole of reality?

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@Leadfoot,

Follow this line of reasoning for a second will ya?

Again lets for the sake of argument grant your Abrahamic God.

1 - God has attributes/properties.
2 - God is an agent with these attributes.
3 - God is eternal.
4 - God did not chose his own attributes. They are Necessary to his ultimate existence.
5 - God has no say on who he is or how to behave as God must do from what God is deemed to be by his own nature.
6 - The Reality of God's attributes is not the result of any agency, rather a brut fact.
7 - Therefore The Reality of any and everything God "designed", the realities that follow from God, were not the result of God's Free Will as again God must do what God is meant to do. They are a brut a priori fact!

8 - Finally a question, where does this leave the concept of Agency at large?

...I rather have the abstract mathematical version!

The argument results in a very simple conclusion:

1 - MINDS are not the creators of Reality as minds own Reality either are the result of something else which is not a mind, or minds are a brut fact that was not chosen by any other mind.
2 - If Mind could not create mind before mind existed, Mind did not create anything else, as everything else is a subset of the attributes of Mind that mind did not chose to be.
3 - Mind follows Nature and not the other way around!

PS - In millennial style, Boom, mic drop!

https://media3.giphy.com/media/26tP8qAV3GyP1Pdde/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47bvw5qp5ojpss8ujqh2hlaougsav8ngh243h47ug6&rid=giphy.gif

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@Albuquerque,

Now bring me your best Theologian pal and I will raise ten fold more problems to the classical concept of God then the ones I did raise here.

I just have one requirement, I want an honest one, open to critique!
I am open to do it on youtube or any other media platform in direct without scripts!

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

My dear friend, piggy doesn't know whether this reply to you is appropriate?
Do you see that piggy always use the format "G*"? haha

0 Replies

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