How can something come from nothing?

@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

Well I surely don't!
Franks argument is either hypocritical or naive.

Bullshit. My argument(s) is (are) neither hypocritical nor naïve.

Here is my argument with regard to any gods:

I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

Here is my argument with regard to the other bullshit you are pushing that one must do "beleiving" in order to have a concept of evil.

I HAVE A CONCEPT OF EVIL.

I ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER DO NOT DO BELIEVING.

There is nothing hypocritical or naïve about either.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am not questioning your lack of belief in gods.

I am questioning your lack of belief in human rights.

That is because you INSIST that people who express opinions must disguise the fact that they are offering an opinion by calling their opinions "beliefs."

I do not do the disguise bit. When I offer an opinion, or guess, or estimate, or supposition...

...I call them opinions, guesses, estimates, or suppositions.

Let that finally sink into that thick skull of yours.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

AND IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE BIGGEST (AND SMALLEST) ACTS OF GENOCIDE IN HUMAN HISTORY ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

What is this opinion based on?

The same thing most opinions are based on...

...my travels through life.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Maybe what Frank is saying is that he has no confidence in any of his own opinions.

I could buy that.

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@Frank Apisa,

What concept of Evil did I spoke about???
I do not have one!
I have a concept of being adapted or inadapted to the social needs, competence or incompetence. Since I do not believe in free will I could never have a concept of Evil.

Much is lost in translation indeed...hope for Reason in Reality has nothing to do with Good or Bad!

Reality by definition must be a Unified conglomerate or you do not have an ecosystem, A REALITY at all!

My minimal viable product of "God" is Reason in the very fabric of Reality and not as a mind with consciousness, but as pure maths in the relation of every single atom or bit of information. A very abstract notion of "God" if you will.

As for your classical definition of Gods that might or might not exist one would have to first analyse if such concept is self consistent or meaningful.
So far I have yet to see a convincing argument for it!

As for your stance it is both hypocritical naive and quite frankly dumb!
ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF MEANINGLESS CONCEPTS, OR, CONCEPTS WE DO NOT GRASP, NO ATTRIBUTE OR PROPERTY INCLUDING AGNOSTICISM CAN APPLY. Basic logic 101 that your continued stupidity fails to understand for a decade now! I am honestly done talking to you!
You have absolutely no wish of learning or trying to give the smalest step on knowing yourself or the world around you.

1 Reply

The blunt limits of Science can be explained in layman terms quite easely in a couple of sentences.

If Donald Duck dedicated his life to observing whatever is around him he would still would not explain anything about matters of fact. Science describes perception in a pragmatic way nothing else.
In fact Science has very little to do with Truth, Understanding, or Explanation in spite of its best efforts to sell a story.

Philosophy has a shot at it and more often then not does it poorly not because Philosophy is nonsense but because its subjects are hard, specially when it comes to analysing concepts and their contexts.
By the way Scientists are terrible at it as the OP topic makes patently clear with creation ad nihil!
Talking with a bunch of monkeys is quite exhausting...and useless!

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

What concept of Evil did I spoke about???
I do not have one!
I have a concept of being adapted or inadapted to the social needs, competence or incompetence. Since I do not believe in free will I could never have a concept of Evil.

What is it with you and what you "believe in?"

Does that **** actually make sense to you?

Quote:

Much is lost in translation indeed...hope for Reason in Reality has nothing to do with Good or Bad!

I have no idea of what the hell that means.

Quote:

Reality by definition must be a Unified conglomerate or you do not have an ecosystem, A REALITY at all!

I have no idea of what the hell that means either.

Quote:

My minimal viable product of "God" is Reason in the very fabric of Reality and not as a mind with consciousness, but as pure maths in the relation of every single atom or bit of information. A very abstract notion of "God" if you will.

Do you ever speak plainly...rather than try to bullshit people?

Quote:

As for your classical definition of Gods that might or might not exist one would have to first analyse if such concept is self consistent or meaningful.
So far I have yet to see a convincing argument for it!

Apparently you do not.

Quote:

As for your stance it is both hypocritical naive and quite frankly dumb!
ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF MEANINGLESS CONCEPTS, OR, CONCEPTS WE DO NOT GRASP, NO ATTRIBUTE OR PROPERTY INCLUDING AGNOSTICISM CAN APPLY. Basic logic 101 that your continued stupidity fails to understand for a decade now! I am honestly done talking to you!
You have absolutely no wish of learning or trying to give the smalest step on knowing yourself or the world around you.

If I wanted to learn anything...you are one of the last people I would come to. By the way, there are people here from whom I HAVE learned things.

So...you are HONESTLY done talking to me.

Okay. We'll see how that works out.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

And ignored, have a nice life bye!

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

And ignored, have a nice life bye!

Shoulda just put me on IGNORE. Instead, you did what you said you HONESTLY WOULD NOT DO.

Oh, well.

Have a nice life yourself.

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@Albuquerque,

As a scientist, I agree with this little screed.

Science can double the human life expectancyand send robots to Mars..but it can't provide any meaning or ultimate Truth.

Whether getting an effective covid-19 vaccine is meaningful is not something science can answer. Science can get is an effective vaccine anyway.

Science offers protection from covid-19. If you want Truth, you will have to go somewhere else.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

And that is a fair answer. Treating Covid is meaningful and important!

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@maxdancona,

Post Scriptum:

Lets hope Science can fix politics, and climate change, and augment human average IQ before Science take us all to a technological catastrophe with General Robotics, General artificial intelligence, and gene editing.
It is important, no, it is paramount that Science gets wise before it gets far!

2 Replies

As I often explained in the past, Science is a tool, a method, not a brain!
On that remark let me just make a simple comment, no one is driving the bus...
How dangerous is that? We shall learn sooner rather then later!

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@Albuquerque,

Quote:

Lets hope Science can fix politics, and climate change, and augment human average IQ before Science take us all to a technological catastrophe

I think you’re bark'n up the wrong tree even for those minor problems, let alone the existential ones.
I doubt that Science is your savior, and neither is your IQ.

And I sincerely hope you are right about 'sooner'.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

I am not looking for redemption nor a saviour of any kind, no Che Guevara for me...
I don't do faulting either, nor shaming or penitence, I am what I am...

I have hopes for the viability of a Biological intelligent species who does not go extinct as soon as it gets smartish...but maybe my hopes are unfounded, and the kind of Intelligence Biological creatures have is not enough.

Just like there is a gap between what microbes can do and what we can do is quite possible Biological Intelligence is far from adequate to surpass the threshold on which a glimpse of Reality can be at least vaguely understood.

As far as I've looked our primitive embodied cognitive languaging process has become more and more inadequate to describe and relate concepts that can apply and make sense of what we see. Our domain of operations as a species is quite limited.

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

It was a metaphor.

And I believe that even before you evolve beyond your current biological inadequacies, your IQ is more than sufficient to have understood that.
Moreover, I think you are using the very real limitations of language to avoid at least trying to describe the glimpse of Reality you imply you've had. And in language and terms common enough that we biological creatures can understand. Please.

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@Albuquerque,

It is not the job of science to fix politics.

For that, you need a deity.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

We agree again...I was being sarcastic in that comment.

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@Frank Apisa,

So then, based on travels in life, your opinion on the issue of genocide carries the same weight as those who opine that acts of genocide are acceptable. Your opinion that acts of genocide are unacceptable isn't empirically better than an opinion that acts of genocide are acceptable.

1 Reply

@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

"God" does not need to be a beard old man in the sky, the idea of UNITY suffices...

So why not call is what it is, "unity," and not "God," especially given the baggage involved with the term?

0 Replies

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