How can something come from nothing?

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Well he must have been a krap Yogi Guru to have let a young carpenter from a cluster of mud huts called Nazareth completely upstage him..

Christianity has done well for itself over the centuries. By threatening people with eternal damnation while offering them a happy afterlife for blind faith, it has used the carrot and the stick very effectively. That along with priests pushing it for their own ends and the general ignorance of ancient populations has allowed the jesus myth to be come the delusion of choice for millions.

But thankfully its time is ending. As more and more people are exposed to better explanations provided by science and freedom from indoctrination these delusions that plague humanity are falling away, and at the present rate within a half dozen generations they (and Jesus) will be remembered alongside of Zeus and Osiris, just as they should be.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

But thankfully its time is ending. As more and more people are exposed to better explanations provided by science and freedom from indoctrination these delusions that plague humanity are falling away, and at the present rate within a half dozen generations they (and Jesus) will be remembered alongside of Zeus and Osiris, just as they should be.

I sincerely hope you are right but I have serious doubts.
Two points..

1. We know from the many of answers on this forum alone that the level of intellect required to see through religion as a palliative, does not statistically occur in the general population. The need for palliatives is not going to go away.
2. Recent excursions of my reading up on "reality" suggests that with the technological tide of "virtual reality" the boundaries will continue to be blurred between "the actual" and "the mythical" (as indeed they already are for those whose actual relationships have been affected by their virtual ones)

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

I sincerely hope you are right but I have serious doubts.

We can only hope that the trend continues and that humanity eventually escapes this mass delusion, but various polls indicate that the percentage of atheists (or non believers) in the population is increasing, and the percentage of actively religious people is decreasing. Also the general access to open information (through the Internet) is increasing for otherwise knowledge-blocked populations. And even though the Internet is awash in all kinds of invalid data and crackpot ideas I believe that the benefits of functional (scientific and technological) knowledge will eventually outweigh the fluff. Knowledge seeps into the population through the tiniest of cracks, and it tends to grow. Once you have a few people with real functional knowledge interspersed into the community they can't help but influence everything around them. I think the spread of functional knowledge is inevitable. Assuming the entire Earth isn't hit with a massive EMP which wipes out our electrical systems for a few hundred years, then we're back to the dark ages again and we'll have to start all over again.

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Quote:

Rosborne said: Christianity has done well for itself over the centuries......But thankfully its time is ending

Yeehaw, happy times ahead when "the fastest-growing religion in the world" finally takes over!
The writings's already on the wall in the form of these notices that are going up in muslim areas of Brit cities.. Wink

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sharia-sticker.jpg

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Quote:

Frankie Apisa said: @RF- YOU...are trying to provide PROOF that Jesus performed miracles...by quoting from the Bible!!! That is circular reasoning

Sorry mate, I still don't see what you're getting at.. Smile

As I said, the bible is simply a chronicle of eyewitness accounts of interactions between humans and non-humans; heck there are even UFO close encounters in there!
Speaking of UFO's, Travis Walton wrote a book about his close encounter which was later made into the film "Fire in the Sky".
He and his lumberjack mates had been cutting down trees all day, then were ambushed by a UFO on their way home, so it's certainly not "circular reasoning" to discuss it.. Smile

http://www.travis-walton.com/ordinary.html

PS- if there are any open-minded truthseekers out there, let me throw this "fun speculation" into the playpen-
Maybe Walton and his lumberjack chums triggered a 'Guardian of the Trees', tying in to these verses -
"I will punish you,a fire in the forest will devour all around it" (Jeremiah 21:4)
"The whole earth is at peace,the trees rejoice at no woodcutter coming" (Isaiah 14:7/8 )

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frankie Apisa said: @RF- YOU...are trying to provide PROOF that Jesus performed miracles...by quoting from the Bible!!! That is circular reasoning

Sorry mate, I still don't see what you're getting at..

Yeah, I think you do get it, Romeo...or I am wrong about how intelligent you are. That is a possibility!

In any case, you are saying that Jesus performed miracles...and the Bible proves that he does.

If you honestly cannot see what is suspect about that...then I cannot help you.

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Quote:

Frankie Apisa said: In any case, you are saying that Jesus performed miracles...and the Bible proves that he does.
If you honestly cannot see what is suspect about that...then I cannot help you

The Koran too says Jesus was a miracle man, so perhaps you's care to waltz into a mosque at prayer time and start telling them he wasn't?.. Smile

(Koran 2.253)- "Allah made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and he gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit"

Like i've said before, Jesus was too BIG to have been a myth, you'll be telling us next that Elvis never existed.. Smile

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frankie Apisa said: In any case, you are saying that Jesus performed miracles...and the Bible proves that he does.
If you honestly cannot see what is suspect about that...then I cannot help you

The Koran too says Jesus was a miracle man, so perhaps you's care to waltz into a mosque at prayer time and start telling them he wasn't?..

(Koran 2.253)- "Allah made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and he gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit"

Looks like it is impossible to discuss anything with you without having you go into one of the "playing the fool" acts. Not sure what you get out of that kind of thing, Romeo...but I hope it is considerable.

So...two religious books (both derivatives of the Abrahamic tradition) claim that Jesus performed miracles. And you use that as "proof" that Jesus performed miracles.

If you do not see what is suspect about that, Romeo...the I cannot help you.

Quote:

Like i've said before, Jesus was too BIG to have been a myth, you'll be telling us next that Elvis never existed..

The conclusion simply does not follow from the self-serving premise, Romeo. I think the "premise" is not a premise at all...it is simply begging the question.

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Returning to the thread title "How can something come out of nothing?", that could also be asked of Christianity.
I mean, why would anybody want to invent it? What on earth would have been their motive?
Until atheists can answer those two questions they'll just be dancing round and round the maypole forever.. Wink

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/maypole_dance_zps54dad585.jpg~original

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Returning to the thread title "How can something come out of nothing?", that could also be asked of Christianity.
I mean, why would anybody want to invent it? What on earth would have been their motive?
Until atheists can answer those two questions they'll just be dancing round and round the maypole forever..

I’m not an atheist, Romeo, but I’d love to give your questions a go.

Quote:

Why would anybody want to invent it?

Gotta be honest, I do not know why Paul wanted to invent it, but he did. It must have satisfied some urge in him. Most humans seem to have a desire to build something from the ground up...and that apparently what was working on Paul.

There are, I'm sure you realize, people here in this forum trying to “invent” their own religion…so the exact “why” is not as important as the fact that people often want to invent religions. It is not that unusual.

(Ego!...which will be at the heart of my response to your second question.)

Quote:

What on earth would have been their motive?

What is the motive for someone to climb Mt. Everest, Romeo? What is the motive to be the first to eat 35 hot dogs in the space of 10 minutes?

Are you saying that you would not be interested in creating something new (like a religion) that would cause you to be remembered in a positive way 2000+ years from now? Even if it would not interest you...it would easily interest an army of people...and Paul obviously was one.

Both of your questions are easily answered…and the fact that you are asking them is an indicator that YOU are dancing around a Maypole…although I doubt it will be forever.

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(My replies in pretty red ink)
Romeo asked: Why would anybody want to invent Christianity? what would have been their motive?
Frank Apisa swung with: I do not know why Paul wanted to invent it, but he did.
Congrats mate, you admit you don't know why Paul "invented" it, that's a good start.. Smile

FA: Ego!...which will be at the heart of my response to your second question.
Good guess but no! Before becoming a Christian Paul had a good well-paid job as a bounty hunter on the snooty priests payroll, but gave it all up to put himself in harm's way to spread Jesus's message; here let him tell you himself-
2 Cor 11 - "I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.
Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.
Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.
Who is weak, and I do not feel weak?"

FA: Are you saying that you would not be interested in creating something new (like a religion) that would cause you to be remembered in a positive way 2000+ years from now?
Nah mate, we holy men don't give a rat's ass about fame and fortune!
And as I said, Paul had already made a name for himself as a bounty hunter and was as famous as Jimmie Ringo or Doc Holliday.
Anyway Paul was just one of many early Christians who were all singing from the same song sheet so i don't know why you seem fixated on him?

Care to have another shot at answering the question- 'Why would anybody want to invent Christianity? what would have been their motive'?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/REL-Paul.jpg

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Christianity has done well for itself over the centuries. By threatening people with eternal damnation while offering them a happy afterlife for blind faith, it has used the carrot and the stick very effectively. That along with priests pushing it for their own ends and the general ignorance of ancient populations has allowed the jesus myth to be come the delusion of choice for millions.

But thankfully its time is ending. . .

Very perceptive. Christendom, along with other lies will be dispatched according to Revelation, chs. 17,18.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

I know the motive Romeo. It was 100% practical.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

I know the motive Romeo. It was 100% practical.

It's detractors are biting the hand that feeds them. A sign of general disgruntlement.

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Quote:

Spendius said: I know the motive Romeo. It was 100% practical.

Not sure I follow mate; the early Christians took some severe hassle from the snooty priests and Romans, which brings us back to the question why on earth anybody would want to "invent" Christianity and put themselves in the firing line?

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

(My replies in pretty red ink)
Romeo asked: Why would anybody want to invent Christianity? what would have been their motive?
Frank Apisa swung with: I do not know why Paul wanted to invent it, but he did.
Congrats mate, you admit you don't know why Paul "invented" it, that's a good start..

FA: Ego!...which will be at the heart of my response to your second question.
Good guess but no! Before becoming a Christian Paul had a good well-paid job as a bounty hunter on the snooty priests payroll, but gave it all up to put himself in harm's way to spread Jesus's message; here let him tell you himself-
2 Cor 11 - "I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.
Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.
Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.
Who is weak, and I do not feel weak?"

FA: Are you saying that you would not be interested in creating something new (like a religion) that would cause you to be remembered in a positive way 2000+ years from now?
Nah mate, we holy men don't give a rat's ass about fame and fortune!
And as I said, Paul had already made a name for himself as a bounty hunter and was as famous as Jimmie Ringo or Doc Holliday.
Anyway Paul was just one of many early Christians who were all singing from the same song sheet so i don't know why you seem fixated on him?

Care to have another shot at answering the question- 'Why would anybody want to invent Christianity? what would have been their motive'?

What makes you think Paul would not give up a "good paying" job in order to invent a new religion?

Because you say you wouldn't...does not mean that Paul wouldn't also.

It is a possibility that Paul did it because he wanted something more than a "good paying job."

Anyway...the "holy man" foolishness is one way to get past actually dealing with what could easily be the answers to your questions.

I don't know that they are correct...but I suspect you cannot logically claim they cannot be correct. But playing the fool seems more important to you than actually dealing with any of the stuff you initiate.

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@Frank Apisa,

By the way...I love the picture of Paul with the King James Bible on his desk.

Great touch!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way...I love the picture of Paul with the King James Bible on his desk.

Great touch!

Good observation, Frank. I'm all for Bible promotion, but Romeo's use of inappropriate images and phony quotes like "you're full of s___t" make the argument for disbelief seem completely reasonable.

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Guys, guys, don't make me have to fire off my blunderbuss of fan mail at you yet again.. Wink

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/blundbuss_zps60196693.jpg~original

PS- who says that's a KJ bible on Paul's desk? Can you prove it, or are you just guessing as usual?

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Guys, guys, don't make me have to fire off my blunderbuss of fan mail at you yet again..

PS- who says that's a KJ bible on Paul's desk? Can you prove it, or are you just guessing as usual?

I am guessing.

But does it really matter which Bible is on Paul's desk for it to be absurd? In fact, would it really matter if it were not a Bible at all...just another bound book with a ribbon marker? Would that really make a significant difference?

Wake up, Romeo!

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