55
   

How can something come from nothing?

 
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:37 am
Quote:
MontereyJack said: That there's a life form with the capacity to do all that.. is far more unlikely to me than the somethingness already being there

But how did all the atoms in the universe get there in the first place?
Jesus was quite specific that a 'Creator' put them there, why would he lie?
Think 'Genesis Project'- "God made the worlds.."(Heb 11:3 KJV)
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:51 am
romeo says:
Quote:
But how did all the atoms in the universe get there in the first place?
Jesus was quite specific that a 'Creator' put them there, why would he lie?

Why should we take his word for it? You're really being circular here. How do we know he's god, ? Because he says he is, in the Bible? Why should we take the Bible's word for it? Decause the Bible's true and inerrant. How do we know it is? Because the Bible says it is. No, sorry. Some outside evidence, please. Why, for example, do you beieve the Bible, rather than the Popul Vuh on creation? The Popul Vuh tells a much better story than the Bible does. And again, looking at the sheer scope of the thing, tell me that the fable of a creator , unseen unproven and unknowable operating from some universe outside of anything we know, creating 10 to some huge power elementary particles one by one makes anymore sense than matter simply existing and going through cyclic big bangs.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 01:33 pm
Quote:
MontereyJack said: How do we know he's god, ? Because he says he is, in the Bible?... Why, for example, do you beieve the Bible, rather than the Popul Vuh on creation?

If an alien lands on earth he'd have to do some pretty amazing things to make us believe him, and that's exactly what Jesus did with his "miracles", so why shouldn't we believe him?
He said straight out - "I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going...I am not of this world" (John 8:14/ 8:23)
Incidentally he WASN'T God and made it clear that he only says and does what God tells him to say and do.
So he was God's 'front man' and he was seen for 3 long years gigging all over Israel in front of the people and the Roman army garrison, heck he was almost as big as Elvis..Smile
The Popul Vuh and other ancient books certainly didn't have the son of god himself walking the earth as their front man, am i right Elv?

"Uh-huh"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/elvis-lip.jpg
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:21 pm
re Romeo:

As a matter of fact the Popul Vuh did have the sons of the gods walking earth as their front men. We know, because they told us so. And of course the Koran had Mohammad walking the earth as the big guy's front man. We know he was legit, because the Koran tells us so. Same as the Bible, you;ll notice.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:40 pm
@MontereyJack,
But did the Popul Vuh frontmen and Mohammed ever do stuff like this to PROVE they had access to "alien technology"..Wink

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father"- John 10:38

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
120 gallons of water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 07:13 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

But did the Popul Vuh frontmen and Mohammed ever do stuff like this to PROVE they had access to "alien technology"..Wink

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father"- John 10:38

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
120 gallons of water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death




In Dallas the day John Kennedy was shot to death...there were thousands of people and cameras all over the place. There are still arguments raging over what exactly happened.

But you want to accept the second hand accounts of people writing years after the supposed events as proof that they happened.

Can you see why some people can be very skeptical about that kind of thing?
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 09:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

But did the Popul Vuh frontmen and Mohammed ever do stuff like this to PROVE they had access to "alien technology"..

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father"- John 10:38

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
120 gallons of water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death




Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

In Dallas the day John Kennedy was shot to death...there were thousands of people and cameras all over the place. There are still arguments raging over what exactly happened.

But you want to accept the second hand accounts of people writing years after the supposed events as proof that they happened.

Can you see why some people can be very skeptical about that kind of thing?


Not only "skeptical" but we must also bear in mind the New Testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus' death and none of the people writing in depth regarding Jesus did not live in his lifetime. "The NT has been translated into many languages from the biblical languages of Hebrew, Aramaic (Aramaic was the language of Jesus) and Greek. As of November 2012 the entire Bible has been translated into 518 languages, and 2,798 languages have at least some portion of the Bible.

The Latin Vulgate (Christian Bible) was dominant in Western Christianity through the Middle Ages. Since then, the Bible has been translated into many more languages. English Bible translations also have a rich and varied history of more than a millennium."

The Bible is a wonderful story, and one of the most imaginative, showing inventiveness; yet to take it literally is deceiving oneself. Accounts vary between the 12 apostles. We should always apply commonsense, say for instance, why don't we see miracles today? Or a highly ordained minister raising the dead? Does anyone really believe a man walked on water defying gravity? Or change water into wine, or feed thousands of people from 5 loaves and 2 fish.

Our species has shown itself to have an inquiring mind, and so, we ask questions. It is perfectly normal to examine this man called Jesus and his "Miracles," querying if his mother did have a virgin birth. It takes two to tango? Mankind's sexual Libido drive/urge is felt at a young age and they say Mary, Jesus' mother, was in her early teens when she conceived. One should wonder who was Jesus' earthly biological father?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 09:38 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Absolutely, MiT.

For Romeo to suggest that we "accept" because of "the miracles Jesus performed" is completely circular reasoning.

I mentioned that in response to his remarks because I can never tell when he is being serious...and when he is acting the fool.

Thanks for commenting on my comment...and for agreeing with the thought I was trying to transmit.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 10:26 am
(My replies in pretty red ink)
Moment-in-Time said:
The New Testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus' death and none of the people writing in depth regarding Jesus did not live in his lifetime.
Gospel-writers Matthew and John were disciples and wrote their gospels in c70 AD and c95AD respectively, Mark wrote his c60AD, he was a friend of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and Luke wrote his c65AD, he was a friend of Paul who spoke with the risen Jesus.
But "wrote" may also mean dictated, or compiled from their earlier notes and scribblings, so actual dates shouldn't be taken literally.


The Bible has been translated into many more languages. yet to take it literally is deceiving oneself.
Right, for example the "serpent" in Eden was just an analogy for the human tendency to listen to the darker side of our nature.
As for the many Bible translations, they're useful because they let us examine things from different angles, just like the cover version of a song, but the underlying theme remains the same.


Accounts vary between the 12 apostles. why don't we see miracles today?
Eyewitness accounts always vary, such as in traffic accidents and court cases, but to their credit the bible translators never edited, censored or re-wrote bits to make everything neat and tidy, that's why the bible has come down to us over the centuries warts and all, so we can trust it because it hasn't been prettied up.
As for miracles today, Jesus was a hard act to follow, so maybe todays miracles are so subtle as to go mostly unnoticed


Does anyone really believe a man walked on water defying gravity? Or change water into wine, or feed thousands of people from 5 loaves and 2 fish.
In modern terms that's "anti-gravity", "transmutation of matter" and "Replication". Jesus said "I'm not of this world" which technically makes him an alien with access to alien technology.
Anyway philosophers often debate the nature of "reality", so if our reality is simply an illusion or dream, we can regard Jesus as a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', seemingly bending the rigid laws of physics to produce what people labelled as "miracles"


Our species has shown itself to have an inquiring mind, and so, we ask questions.
Yes, each of Jesus's miracles are worthy of scientific discussion and examination because they raise some intriguing questions, for example some "miracle cures" he performed by remote control without going to see the patient, yet in others he had to make physical contact, like when he made mud pies out of his spit to plaster over a blind mans eyes.
And when he brought a little girl back to life he had to shoo the scoffers out of the room first as if their bad vibes would scupper the miracle, (disrupt the "dream" or "illusion") and he only let her parents and a couple of disciples remain because in Star Wars terms, The Force was strong in them
..Smile

0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 12:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Absolutely, MiT.

For Romeo to suggest that we "accept" because of "the miracles Jesus performed" is completely circular reasoning.

I mentioned that in response to his remarks because I can never tell when he is being serious...and when he is acting the fool.

Thanks for commenting on my comment...and for agreeing with the thought I was trying to transmit.


Not at all, Frank Apisa. On many topics you and I are in sync. In my personal experience, I have found it wiser to not engage too seriously with deeply religious people. Some people of faith are highly intense regarding their belief, in fact, so extreme they end up thinking you and I are the enemy. You have far more patience than I. Even though the poster, Romeo F. signals he's a Christian believer in Jesus, his intolerance for minorities and his views with respect to social views, tend to turn me off. I have the poster on ignore.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 12:21 pm
Quote:
Moment in Time said: Romeo F. signals he's a Christian believer in Jesus, his intolerance for minorities and his views with respect to social views, tend to turn me off. I have the poster on ignore

Good, now I can talk about you behind your back..Smile
I see from your profile that you're a female, that explains why you've gone red in the face, pouted, stamped your foot and ran out of the room in a huff to sulk!
You indicated earlier that you were an open-minded truth seeker, yet here you are making a fool of yourself by admitting you only listen to people who share your own cosy little view of reality!
You can't get under the bibles radar..Wink
"They prefer teachers who only tell them what they want to hear" (2 Tim 4:2-4)

Now get on here this instant!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/naughty-step_zpseb4d36c1.jpg~original
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2013 03:20 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Moment in Time said: Romeo F. signals he's a Christian believer in Jesus, his intolerance for minorities and his views with respect to social views, tend to turn me off. I have the poster on ignore

Good, now I can talk about you behind your back..Smile
I see from your profile that you're a female, that explains why you've gone red in the face, pouted, stamped your foot and ran out of the room in a huff to sulk!
You indicated earlier that you were an open-minded truth seeker, yet here you are making a fool of yourself by admitting you only listen to people who share your own cosy little view of reality!
You can't get under the bibles radar..Wink
"They prefer teachers who only tell them what they want to hear" (2 Tim 4:2-4)

Now get on here this instant!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/naughty-step_zpseb4d36c1.jpg~original



No need for that foolishness, Romeo. MiT tried to make a point with you...and she did it in a courteous manner. You continue to act the fool...for whatever reason.

And your reasoning about the miracles of Jesus...IS completely circular.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
... to RF: And your reasoning about the miracles of Jesus...IS completely circular.

You should not be that sure. The ceremonial red wine and the wholemeal bread are mind-blowing 'medication' for a lot of diseases, incl. anemia, MS, diabetes, and cancer. How could the ancient have known things that the contemporary medicine discovered just recently. What about the red grapes and the figs? What about the mulberry tea? What about the bee honey?
What about the therapeutic effect of the leeches in the treatment of some diseases?
There isn't any logic for the ancient people to have had better medicinal knowledge than the contemporary medicine ... unless they have had some other sources of information ... 'direct memory access' to the Word of God, for example.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 08:14 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

Quote:
... to RF: And your reasoning about the miracles of Jesus...IS completely circular.

You should not be that sure. The ceremonial red wine and the wholemeal bread are mind-blowing 'medication' for a lot of diseases, incl. anemia, MS, diabetes, and cancer. How could the ancient have known things that the contemporary medicine discovered just recently. What about the red grapes and the figs? What about the mulberry tea? What about the bee honey?
What about the therapeutic effect of the leeches in the treatment of some diseases?
There isn't any logic for the ancient people to have had better medicinal knowledge than the contemporary medicine ... unless they have had some other sources of information ... 'direct memory access' to the Word of God, for example.


Herald, if you want to suppose that using the Bible to prove that Jesus performed miracles is not circular reasoning...

...go for it.

It will not harm your intellectual reputation here in this thread.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 11:36 am
The Bible is simply a chronicle of close encounters between humans and non-human beings over a period of many centuries, so quoting it isn't "circular reasoning" at all, it's simply discussing eyewitness accounts etc..Smile
Same when somebody quotes a science book, that's not circular reasoning either..Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 11:42 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

The Bible is simply a chronicle of close encounters between humans and non-human beings over a period of many centuries, so quoting it isn't "circular reasoning" at all, it's simply discussing eyewitness accounts etc..Smile
Same when somebody quotes a science book, that's not circular reasoning either..Smile


Quoting from any book is no problem, Romeo...and is not circular.

Try to keep up.

We were not talking about quoting.

We were talking about using the quotes as PROOFS.

That is where the circularity comes in.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 11:55 am
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: @RF- We were not talking about quoting.
We were talking about using the quotes as PROOFS.
That is where the circularity comes in

Sorry mate, I'm still not with you.
For example, Dawkins books push the notion that Evolution is all neatly explained, cut and dried, and tied up with pretty pink ribbons, and people quote from them all the time as "truth and proof".
Yet even Dawks himself admits the theory of evolution is full of missing links!
So how can people say his books provide proof any more than the bible does?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 11:58 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: @RF- We were not talking about quoting.
We were talking about using the quotes as PROOFS.
That is where the circularity comes in

Sorry mate, I'm still not with you.
For example, Dawkins books push the notion that Evolution is all neatly explained, cut and dried, and tied up with pretty pink ribbons, and people quote from them all the time as "truth and proof".
Yet even Dawks himself admits the theory of evolution is full of missing links!
So how can people say his books provide proof and that the Bible doesn't?


YOU...are trying to provide PROOF that Jesus performed miracles...by quoting from the Bible!!!

That is circular reasoning.

If you can cite other examples of circular reasoning (I am not suggesting you have)...that would not change the fact that your reasoning here is circular.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 12:17 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
The Bible is simply a chronicle of close encounters between humans and non-human beings over a period of many centuries, so quoting it isn't "circular reasoning" at all, it's simply discussing eyewitness accounts etc..Smile

Eyewitness accounts from people who (may have) existed 2000 years ago which cannot be verified in any way are called "Bullshit Stories".

If a million people said that they saw a Yogi Guru float around the room, would you believe them? Because we can find that even today from living "eyewitnesses", but that doesn't mean it really happened does it.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 02:29 pm
Quote:
Rosborne said: If a million people said that they saw a Yogi Guru float around the room, would you believe them? Because we can find that even today from living "eyewitnesses", but that doesn't mean it really happened does it.

Well he must have been a krap Yogi Guru to have let a young carpenter from a cluster of mud huts called Nazareth completely upstage him..Smile
Jesus said- "I've beaten the world" (John 16:33)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/team-jesus.jpg~original
 

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