7
   

Can you recognise the first line of the book cover?

 
 
Reply Tue 4 Dec, 2012 11:48 pm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Communist-manifesto.png
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Type: Question • Score: 7 • Views: 4,931 • Replies: 17

 
View best answer, chosen by oristarA
cherrie
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2012 12:01 am
@oristarA,
manifest
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2012 12:40 am
@cherrie,
cherrie wrote:

manifest


Did you get the conclusive result at your first sight?
RST
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2012 12:56 am
@oristarA,
Manifest
der
Kommunistischen Partei

Cherrie is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto
0 Replies
 
cherrie
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2012 02:35 am
@oristarA,
Yes, I thought it was pretty obvious.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2012 08:35 am
Are you sure that is a cover? It looks more like a title page to me. Anyhow, the font is a Gothic one, like the one below, except that it has the old fashioned long 's' that some people mistake for an 'f'. Gothic fonts were used a lot in Germany in former times.

http://typophile.com/files/gothic_3574.jpg
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2012 06:02 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Are you sure that is a cover? It looks more like a title page to me. Anyhow, the font is a Gothic one, like the one below, except that it has the old fashioned long 's' that some people mistake for an 'f'. Gothic fonts were used a lot in Germany in former times.

http://typophile.com/files/gothic_3574.jpg


Is the font of NewYork Times Gothic, then?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2012 12:24 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
Is the font of NewYork Times Gothic, then?


If you mean the masthead on the front page, yes.

http://www.luxurydaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/marc-jacobs-nytimes-dot-ads.jpg

oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 01:38 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:
Is the font of NewYork Times Gothic, then?


If you mean the masthead on the front page, yes.

http://www.luxurydaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/marc-jacobs-nytimes-dot-ads.jpg




Thank you Contrex.

BTW, our stooooopid government has blocked NYTimes since October this year.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 03:45 am
@oristarA,

The "Manifesto of the Communist Party", in German, in old German gothic script.

"Published in February 1848"

"Prolerariat of all countries, unite!"

Published in London, I see

But you knew that already.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 04:15 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
... in old German gothic script.
This font is called "Fraktur" and was used from the middle of the 16th onwards until ... well, even today.

In book prints, often 'antiqua' was used for e.g. Latin ....
http://i50.tinypic.com/347boro.jpg

... or French words
http://i45.tinypic.com/mtlbaf.jpg
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 08:59 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


The "Manifesto of the Communist Party", in German, in old German gothic script.

"Published in February 1848"

"Prolerariat of all countries, unite!"

Published in London, I see

But you knew that already.


Practices have proven that the slogan is stupid. The united force was brutal, far more destructive than constructive, easily to be misguided and misused by dictators. Dr.Marx became an asshole because of this madfesto (oh, well, typo, manifesto).

McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 02:24 pm
@oristarA,

Okay, but as we say, don't blame the messenger for the message.

Or: Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 05:48 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
Can you recognise the first line of the book cover?


I'm almost certain that we've been thru this before, Ori. It's not a super big deal but it has raised some questions in my mind. At worst, you get some further exposure to the English language.

Your use here of 'recognise' doesn't quite sound natural to me. Perhaps it's because there is no expectation in your thinking that any of us has "previously known" the word. We aren't being asked of a previous knowledge of the word, we are being asked if we can discern what it is, what the lettering represents.

If you were asking us if we recognized a particular letter within the word, I suggest that it would be more natural.

Do you recognize the last/second to last letter?

Quote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recognize

recognize

3a : to perceive to be something or someone previously known <recognized the word>


It is my considered opinion, [others please feel free to weigh in], that the word you want for this situation is 'make out'.

Quote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/make+out

make out

: to see and identify with difficulty or effort : discern <make out a ship through the fog>


Maybe, ... Confused ... the problem is the use of 'can' rather than 'do'.

Can you make out ... ?

?? Do you make out ... ?

Do you recognize ... ?

Can you recognize ... ?

Confused Confused
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 09:58 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Okay, but as we say, don't blame the messenger for the message.

Or: Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player.


Dr. Marx was the very author of the 'madfesto,' not the messenger, McTag.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 10:16 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Can you recognise the first line of the book cover?


I'm almost certain that we've been thru this before, Ori. It's not a super big deal but it has raised some questions in my mind. At worst, you get some further exposure to the English language.

Your use here of 'recognise' doesn't quite sound natural to me. Perhaps it's because there is no expectation in your thinking that any of us has "previously known" the word. We aren't being asked of a previous knowledge of the word, we are being asked if we can discern what it is, what the lettering represents.

If you were asking us if we recognized a particular letter within the word, I suggest that it would be more natural.

Do you recognize the last/second to last letter?

Quote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recognize

recognize

3a : to perceive to be something or someone previously known <recognized the word>


It is my considered opinion, [others please feel free to weigh in], that the word you want for this situation is 'make out'.

Quote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/make+out

make out

: to see and identify with difficulty or effort : discern <make out a ship through the fog>


Maybe, ... Confused ... the problem is the use of 'can' rather than 'do'.

Can you make out ... ?

?? Do you make out ... ?

Do you recognize ... ?

Can you recognize ... ?

Confused Confused


Excellent, JTT.

The situation is different now. English has become an inseparable part of my daily life. I enjoy it more than use it. So if you or anyone else who's sincere in defending and developing English finds any language flaws in my posts, bombards, however fierce, will be welcomed.

As for the case here, surely "Do you make out the first line of the title page?" is okay.
I'm not sure whether "Can you make out the first line of the title page?" is natural or not.

But the usage of the word recognize is still a puzzle for me.
If it means "to perceive to be something or someone previously known,"
"Do you recognize the first line of the title page?" seems all right because I am certain that you've previously known the word manifesto. As for "Can you recognize..." is more ambiguous to me.

JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2012 11:29 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
As for the case here, surely "Do you make out the first line of the title page?" is okay.


No, 'do' isn't possible here, Ori because present tense form 'do' holds the meaning of a general condition as in,

"I work/live in London."


Quote:
I'm not sure whether "Can you make out the first line of the title page?" is natural or not.


That is perfectly natural. Notice that there's no semantic connection to the general condition. It's a one time thing and 'make out' [in its less fun meaning Smile] holds the meaning of trying to discern something that isn't clear, possibly it's smudged or in this case old style lettering.

I remember first reading Robert Lowth, one of the old time prescriptivists. It was a little tough at first because though all the letters were clear in a sight sense, that is, I could make them out, I didn't recognize what letters they were, ie. as follows the definition below from M-W,

3a : to perceive to be something or someone previously known <recognized the word>

I didn't initially perceive them as Ss or Fs because there had been no previous knowledge, hence recognition could not/did not take place.

Very recently, in an A2K post Dlowan used a word, which I now forget, that I didn't recognize [puzzling use of 'which' and then 'that' as close quarter relative pronouns ?????]. I was able to make it out, ie. it was crystal clear to see but I had had no previous knowledge of the word.

Quote:
But the usage of the word recognize is still a puzzle for me.
If it means "to perceive to be something or someone previously known,"
"Do you recognize the first line of the title page?" seems all right because I am certain that you've previously known the word manifesto.[/quote]

Yes, I agree, because of the use of 'do', a present tense form meaning "is it part of the general knowledge you now possess".

"Do you recognize/know all the words in the first line of the title page?"


Quote:
As for "Can you recognize..." is more ambiguous to me.


Yes, I agree, but not with as much conviction as I previously felt. Perhaps I should sleep on it. Smile

I believe that this would be a strong possibility in a situation, say, where someone who had suffered a concussion/brain damage was being asked about people they knew, family and friends.

Doctor: Can [= Is it possible for you to/Do you now have the ability to] recognize any faces of the people here?

Patient: [to hammer home 'make out'] I can't make out the faces at the end of the bed. Please hand me my glasses. [gets glasses, looks around] Yes, I recognize everyone.

[tumultuous clapping, crying and laughter]
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2012 10:42 pm
@JTT,
How vivid!
A good teaching.
Thank you JTT.
0 Replies
 
 

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