Is it possible to mess around twice without going all the way?

Does it matter?

It's details. This woman's hand was on your genitals, yes? And yours was/were on hers, right?

Then an orgasm is a lovely thing but I think the point is less that it didn't happen than that hands were on private parts.

It's entirely possible that you felt guilty.
It's entirely possible that you are grossed out about sweat.
It's entirely possible that you expected her to have an orgasm from your intimate encounter and because she didn't, either time you didn't continue.

It's entirely true that your wife doesn't have to believe anything at the moment after all, you crossed the boundry.. So, to try to prove to her that someone will agree with you, so she can read this and then you "win?" on that count, is pointless.

Be a man, own up irrespective for what you did, as you have and deal with it and work on your marriage. She has a right to not believe you, you didn't come forth until you suspected she would find out. Why should she believe your events as a result.

I don't understand why your wife does not believe that you messed around twice without going all the way the second time. It was in a car, for crissakes!!

Now if you had gone to a motel the second time and said you just petted, I'd call you a damn liar.

It's not about how far you went, it' s about that you repeated the act. No doubt it would have escalated, perhaps to that motel room.

Stop concentrating on this silly argument and work to sooth your wife's bad feelings.

Believe me, I'm trying, but she keeps coming back to it, and says she won't continue unless I admit it went further. Of course, she thinks I did go to a motel, too.

I'll just keep trying to be understanding, and hope she eventually sees - and believes - I'm sincere.

I've been owning up for five months, but she won't let this point go. Believe me, I don't want to dwell on it any longer.

I finally told her not because she could have found out, either - there was no trail for her to find out we had even gone that far. But I wanted to end the interrogations and try to move forward. But she thinks I didn't come forth with everything, which is understandable but frustrating.

It doesn't matter in that it was totally wrong, and I am totally to blame. But it matters to her, because she still thinks I'm lying, and I can't prove I'm not, and all her friends tell her there's no way it could have stopped there the second time. I'm hoping that if she could just somehow believe that it really could have been how I described it, she'd be better able to move on to how we can fix things.

I'm very reluctant to lie and say I did it, just to move forward; lying made this whole mess even worse.

I think it's entirely possible to mess around twice without going all the way.

But you say you had a three-week affair. So, what made it a three-week affair if there were only 2 incidents of physical contact? Were you meeting with this woman, or phoning, texting, e-mailing her? What else went on between you for those 3 weeks? What details were you trying to hide from your wife before you came clean? What made her suspicious of you?

It's really not that important whether your wife believes you didn't go "all the way" or not. You've broken her sense of trust in you, by what you did, and she feels betrayed. You were obviously attracted to someone else, and you acted on your feelings to some extent, and then you initially lied to your wife about it.

Just confessing obviously wasn't enough to heal the breach of trust, it simply put an end to your lying about the "affair". Your wife just doesn't trust you now, and that's what you've got to contend with.

If your wife is willing to try to work this out, and to try to save your marriage, you might ask her if she'll see a marriage counselor with you. Having a third party like that help you both to sort out your feelings, and help you both to decide whether you can save the marriage, and whether you both really want to save the marriage, and can move past this rift, would probably be beneficial.

You may have broken a trust that can't be fixed. But seeing a marriage counselor might help. If your wife won't go see one with you, which would certainly be better, consult one by yourself, it can't hurt.

Oh, we've been seeing counselors (we're on our second) for 21 months now (I revealed the sexual contact details 5 months ago).

The affair started with lunches (supposedly benign, but that was the start, obviously), then hugging, then kissing - the further sexual contact was the last week. There were also racy emails.

I understand all the broken trust issues and all (lots of counseling, remember), but she just hasn't met one person who says it couldn't have gone further, so she refuses to believe me on this.

I guess it's just up to her to decide if we're broken forever. We have many good days when I think we'll get through this, but today is not one of them.

LOL!!!

So there were problems in your marriage prior to your affair.

And you made the marriage counseling a sham by getting involved with another woman, rather than discussing your feelings in therapy instead of acting on them.

You are placing too much of the responsibility for the viability of your marriage on your wife--if only she'd believed you that you didn't go "all the way" things would work out, or you could both put this behind you. Whether or not you went "all the way" doesn't change anything. You've shown yourself to be deceitful, you've let your wife know she can't trust you, so why should she believe she can trust you in the future, or even trust you right now? Have you changed in any fundamental way? This isn't just about sexual fidelity, it's about trust in a much broader sense, and I'm not sure you really understand that.

You're the one who wasn't fully committed to trying to save the marriage, and that's what your "affair" revealed. Can you see the hypocrisy in going to marriage counseling while you're thinking about, and getting involved with, another woman? Even in your marriage counseling you haven't been really honest.

Forget trying to convince your wife of anything. Try to understand why you did what you did, and why you didn't consider the impact it would have on a marriage which already had problems. Focus on trying to understand why you did something to undermine your marriage and your wife's trust in you. If you don't really understand those things, you can't trust yourself not to repeat a pattern of deceit or betrayal. Just realizing you were wrong isn't enough. You've really got to understand why you made the choices you did, what your priorities were, and whether you really are committed to your marriage even now.

You aren't going to make your wife feel less hurt, or angry, or betrayed, by anything you do now because the damage is already done, and you can't magically erase that. Stop trying to manipulate your wife's feelings about it. Whether or not you had intercourse with the other woman is a mere technicality--you did betray your wife, and you lied to her, and that's what she's reacting to, and she's entitled to her feelings about it.

It's also up to you. Are you really able to be more honest and open with your wife than you've been in the past? Do you really understand why you did what you did? Do you understand what your wife needs from you now? Are you willing to simply accept her feelings of anger and hurt without getting defensive about it--i.e. but, honey, I was only messing around, I didn't go all the way--and without trying to turn off, or tone down, her angry feelings toward you? If you can't accept her anger, without trying to neutralize or diminish it, your marriage won't be able to move past this.

Forget the technicality of whether you did or didn't have intercourse--just accept, and acknowledge, your wife's feelings of anger and mistrust--respond to her feelings rather than the content of her accusations, and respond to them with genuine empathy and understanding. Right now you sound too caught up in being defensive, and too focused on trying to set the record straight about what you did with the other woman--you need to just accept your wife's feelings of anger without pleading your own case. You did enough to justify your wife's anger and mistrust, so just accept her feelings, and the validity of her feelings, and let her express them, and acknowledge that you understand them. By continuing to try to plead your case, about not going all the way, you are just generating more conflict. Just accept her feelings--don't argue with what she's feeling, and stop being so defensive.

I'm sorry; I didn't make myself clear. The affair happened 21 months ago; as a result we started counseling. I have been totally faithful since then, without a hint of doubt - but I had hidden the extent of the affair until five months ago.

I have spent those 21 months analyzing why I did what I did, and I feel that I've grown, and it is well behind me now. I felt terrible while I was doing it (and still do), and am glad that I'm "back" to the person I used to be (minus the flaws that led got me into trouble, of course).

I've been working hard at counseling, and am not caught up in this technicality; my wife is. If she can't believe that it's possible for me to have only gone that far, then she won't commit to trying to move past it and try to fox the problems we have (the ones I created, and others).

She's trying, and I give her credit for that; it's just that on bad days she always comes back to saying that stopping short twice just isn't possible, and that's the deal-killer.

Can I suggest that after 21 months and two counselors, it's really not about that particular "incident?"

There probably is another issue that precludes AND includes the incident.

I suspect that your wife never really felt loved by you - and then you went ahead and gave her proof.

What do the counselors say? What was your "homework" from the counseling sessions?

Be honest with yourself. Can you really be there for her? Were you ever?

Is she hyper-sensitive? Does she show an inability to even get past this incident?

This MUST get resolved or you are going to live the rest of your marriage as the hen-pecked husband - and she might work the role of the shrew.

Dig deeper for the real issue(s).

Now you're getting there.

Yes, she feels I don't love her as much as she loves me. And then I went and gave her proof.

The counselors want her to move forward. When she does, things are good. It's when she looks back that things deteriorate.

I was there for her, and am trying to be there for her now. In many ways, but she focuses on the one where I wasn't.

She is incredibly hyper-sensitive, and is having trouble getting past this incident. Her childhood abuse is a factor here, we both know, but I can't control that aspect - I've got to focus on what I can do.

Yes, it does get to be the shrew/hen-pecked husband situation when she gets in her pessimistic mood.

I agree, we need to get out of the vicious circle. That's why I was hoping that if she could at least see that there are others out there who believe it is entirely possible to have stopped short twice, it would give her one less argument not to try. I know it's not really the issue; it's really just the feeling of hurt and betrayal. I'm doing my best to build our relationship back up; I'm just hoping she'll meet me part way.

So . . as a child, betrayed by adults (who were supposed to protect and love her) then betrayed by husband (who was supposed to protect and love her)

Double whammy for her. Old hurts of betrayal brought up, for sure.

You need to let her know that if she can't get past this, she may be in danger of losing you. Insist that she continue counseling - she will have to work on these issues with a therapist.

(Your job is to find out what made you so vunerable that you sought out extra-marital pre-sexual encounters)

Good luck

BTW - could i ask how old you are and if there are children?

I'm 50, she's 49. It's my second marriage, her fourth (my first wife divorced me, my current wife divorced her previous husbands - lots of baggage, all around). All our kids (from previous marriages) are 21 and up. We've been married for over two years (yes, the affair happened in our first year of marriage - although we had been dating for five years before that).

We left ourselves lots of room for maturing.

Thanks for your insights.