Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 01:18 pm
It is impossible to convince a conservative that the government can do anything right...or in competition with private enterprise.

The people who tell them what to think will never agree to it.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 02:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I pointed out that the issue was both popularity and cost containment - at the same time. I also outlined the reasons for my views and suggested the factors behind them, including a number of well-know and easily researched examples of related issues.

Your response is two completely unsupported assertions, both absolute, categorical and entirely unqualified, concerning the supposed nature of those who disagree with you, and offering nothing about the subject at hand.

Not very satisfying, but in keeping with your typical = above the fray - evasion of real discussion, and equally remarkable credulity concerning popular progressive issues.

Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 02:28 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5240134)
I pointed out that the issue was both popularity and cost containment - at the same time. I also outlined the reasons for my views and suggested the factors behind them, including a number of well-know and easily researched examples of related issues.


Yes you did, George. And in my opinion your comments pretty much reduced to: The government will only screw things up...and private enterprise won't.

Quote:
Your response is two completely unsupported assertions, both absolute, categorical and entirely unqualified, concerning the supposed nature of those who disagree with you, and offering nothing about the subject at hand.


I said something about people who disagree with me???

What I said was: "It is impossible to convince a conservative that the government can do anything right...or in competition with private enterprise.

The people who tell them what to think will never agree to it."


I guess I should have "qualified" it as a personal opinion of mine. I apologize for not doing so. It was an accidental omission...not anything nefarious on my part.

Quote:
Not very satisfying, but in keeping with your typical = above the fray - evasion of real discussion, and equally remarkable credulity concerning popular progressive issues.


Well, to be honest with you, George, I think it really was more a display of my very, very low regard for conservative thinking on these issues. I acknowledge your right to have the considerations you do...and you seem to do a much better job of presenting them than most conservatives...but even when well-presented, they leave me colder than a round of golf in New Jersey during January or February.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 03:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is impossible to convince a conservative that the government can do anything right...or in competition with private enterprise.



Government has no business competing with private enterprise and conservative Americans are sick and tired of liberal democrats telling us one thing while doing the opposite. You speak of spreading the wealth around, but your actions always end up spreading misery around. Liberal democrats have done a great job convincing conservatives that all forms of liberalism are doomed to failure.

We the people must exercise rights that enable us to limit the power of government and we to do this right away!
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 03:20 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I fear that such a single payer health care system would quickly becone unionized, politicized, and intensely bureaucratic. In short a perfect model for increasingly expensive mediocrity.

as we have seen with Department of Homeland Security. the problem is not just cost though, it is also poor quality of work. America has a disgraceful record on food and water quality, our regulated utilities are a disaster, our urban planning is second rate at best, we cant even manage to upgrade government computer systems or air traffic control systems at anything close to a reasonable cost or time frame, our government run passenger rail system is more than 50 years out of date.....and I could go on and on. our healthcare system is already mediocre at best, changing who pays the bills is not going to change that, and even if we were to go that way it is not at all clear that it should be the government which is entrusted with the job. this is after all the same government that abuses us with the "justice" system and has not been able to produce a budget in 4 years.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 04:31 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5240134)
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is impossible to convince a conservative that the government can do anything right...or in competition with private enterprise.



Government has no business competing with private enterprise and conservative Americans are sick and tired of liberal democrats telling us one thing while doing the opposite.


Really! Think we should privatize the Air Force?

Quote:
You speak of spreading the wealth around, but your actions always end up spreading misery around.


Well I am no liberal, so they can handle this distortion if they choose.

I can only say as an outsider that I do not think a conservative agenda spreads the misery around. They heap it mostly on the less fortunate people in order to keep as much misery as possible from the more fortunate ones.

And they are abetted in this by some of the less fortunate who are just not smart enough to see they are being used.

Quote:
Liberal democrats have done a great job convincing conservatives that all forms of liberalism are doomed to failure.


Could be. As I said, I am not a liberal, so they will have to handle that. But I do agree that conservatives are extremely gullible people and it is easy to convince them of almost anything. Their masters do it all the time.

Quote:
We the people must exercise rights that enable us to limit the power of government and we to do this right away!


If I could figure out what you were trying to say here, I would respond.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 05:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
single payer does not work because it does almost nothing to solve the critical problem, which is that we pay far more than we can afford for a system that provides not very good medical service.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 05:45 pm
@blatham,
Let's try that again.
Quote:
Re: hawkeye10 (Post 5239734)
single payer does not work because it does almost nothing to solve the critical problem, which is that we pay far more than we can afford for a system that provides not very good medical service.


What an odd claim. Canada's medical insurance/delivery costs are below that of the US and our outcomes are consistently superior. US costs are higher than all other western nations, yes? Most outcomes inferior, no?

So what on earth are you talking about?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 05:56 pm
@blatham,
Who knows Bernie?

You have " we pay far more" and "our outcomes are consistently superior".

Are you coming or going? I think we deserve to be told.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 06:05 pm
@blatham,
Haha, I did a double-take when I read that first post.

I was like, Blatham said WHAT?

Cycloptichorn
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 06:09 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Most of the discussion above has centered on the supposed popularity of the system, and the power it would give Democrats in serving identifiable constituencies going forward. I haven't seen any defense ohere of the notion that it could remain popular while, at the same time, reduce our spending by half as its proponents claim. The references to continuing political gains from such a system are themselves acknowlegment of the likely political corruption that will attend it.


"Supposed popularity"? If consumers of such programs in ALL other western nations remain in support of those programs and refuse to see them dismantled (thus, as I noted, no political parties move to make this a platform plank) how on earth can you imagine the word "supposed" makes any sense at all here?

"Remain popular"? A lot of these nations have had their programs in place for many decades.

"Reduce by half"? Who the hell cares if someone said half or five sevenths or fifteen sixteenths. That's a straw man, george. If costs are reduced AT ALL or even if costs remain the same but outcomes improve and number of citizens covered is increased, you win.

" The references to continuing political gains from such a system are themselves acknowlegment of the likely political corruption that will attend it." Well, that's not my reference, it was Bill Kristol's reference and reasoning for why Hillarycare had to be beaten down. As to "likely political corruption", please. This is entirely meaningless and incoherent unless you might, for some unknown reason, imagine that corruption can only arise as a consequence of one arm of government messing about with another arm of government (private enterprise being some creature like Mary, ever virginal and pure).

Some of you folks make be familiar with Rick Perlstein, a very bright young American historian. I can very highly recommend either Nixonland or Before the Storm if you wish to get a better handle on how the present right wing has come into being. But let me toss in a quote from his first post (Jan 7) over at the Nation where he's writing now...

"Now, in response to something like that, you’ll hear my fellow debaters repeat a curious fallacy, a crushing intellectual failure. They’ll act like only governments have the power to deprive citizens of freedom."
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 06:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Hi cyclo. Hope all is well. And yes, I had to chuckle realizing how that error would look.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 06:17 pm
@blatham,
It's no use arguing with George Bernie.

He's "got his". He's well fixed. And it's a valid point of view. I suspect that if you was as well fixed you would share it.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 06:22 pm
@blatham,
And apologies for all the formatting screw ups above. I have a medical condition which the literature terms New Delhi Hot Pipes and this running back and forth to and from the washroom has me confused.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2013 10:58 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

And apologies for all the formatting screw ups above. I have a medical condition which the literature terms New Delhi Hot Pipes and this running back and forth to and from the washroom has me confused.

ok, as long as you are not confused about the value proposition of the US healthcare system sucking when compared to other developed countries:

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/health-spending-and-life-expectancy.jpg
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2013 08:55 am
@hawkeye10,
Uh... what is it you think this graph (link please) is demonstrating?
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2013 08:57 am
@blatham,
I think he is backing you up, Bernie. I think he is corroborating your thesis that although we spend relatively much more than other developed countries, we derive less than moderate results.
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2013 09:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well, earlier he said...

Quote:
Re: hawkeye10 (Post 5239734)
single payer does not work because it does almost nothing to solve the critical problem, which is that we pay far more than we can afford for a system that provides not very good medical service.


As the graph shows, he's right about delivery costs in the US and as regards relatively crappy outcomes. But what's the connection to the other part of the claim "single payer does not work"?
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2013 09:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Damn you're dumb, FrankA.

You say you are not a liberal, then stop acting like one.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2013 09:24 am
@blatham,
Oh, I see the problem.

You want him to be consistent.

Good luck with that.

(Don't get upset, Hawk...I'm just busting chops. Gotta have a laugh once in a while!)
0 Replies
 
 

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