Now what, USA?

Do I understand you correctly that the economic crisis in Western Europe is a result of our mandatory health care system?

It's called bending the facts so they agree with your own twisted version of reality. Unbridled capitalism is to blame for the crisis now and in the 1930s, with adequate legislation sub-prime couldn't be repackaged as something other than a really terrible investment.

Oh, and Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy helped to **** things up as well.

if that's the case shouldn't Canada have tanked a long time ago? we've certainly bobbed up and down a few times but if mandatory health care is so bad, Canada should have disappeared in the 1960's

Actually, Germany has had universal health care the longest, and they're the strongest economy in Europe.

Well, we survived WWI and the years afterwards, the late 1920's, the years after WWII to 1949, the re-unification (our insurance companies got from day to the other 17 million new members who had paid NOTHING in the system!) ...

I'd think Republicans would start eschewing the Carl Rove-ian "Anything is possible" rhetoric, and start embracing the Nate Silver-esque "let's look at what is likely" worldview.

"It's possible" starts to sound like magical thinking. Just like the magical "tax breaks will improve the economy" schtick, when data shows that tax rates don't affect the economy one way or the other much (if any).

Just like the "letting homosexuals get married will be the end of marriage" schtick, when experience shows that letting homosexuals get married doesn't affect straight people's marriages at all.



Is it possible that doctors will quit en masse, and nobody will be able to get medical care? I suppose it's possible, but it just ain't likely. I have friends and family that are MDs, DPTs (physical therapists with doctorates), and Ph.D. clinical psychologists. Some have expressed doubts about Obamacare, but none of them have suggested the slightest interests in shuttering their practices.

If anything, it looks to me as if Obamacare will drive more money into the medical industry.

1) Many more people covered by insurance, and paying premiums.
2) 80% of those premiums have to be paid out for health care.

How does this not add up to better conditions for doctors?

What will the sheep give up? How much more wool will be needed?

You are the angry ones. Even Chris Matthews was glad people died and property was destroyed so the Shepard can keep his flock of 50% "moving forward"...right over the cliff....if the Congress can not grow up, that will happen.

As I said, good lock and protect your assets.

The Republican-controlled Congress?

I agree.

Clearly, Europe tanked because of all the plastic surgeries and liposuction the Greeks were having on the national health.

O-pa ! ! !

It just gets more and more embarrassing--look up the word shepherd. You know, herd sheep, shepherd? It's sad hearing that from the teabagger crowd, who just puke up what they've been fed.

As DD points out, the problem is the congressional Republicans. This is the same sort of **** you people spouted four years ago.

All that the GOP offers is "fear." They don't have any other message.

Or consider the experience in America's own government-run systems, such as the VA and Medicare. Both systems take government involvement much farther than Obamacare. And to my knowledge of the relevant market research, their clients tend to be much happier with their health care than the clients of America's private providers. The horror stories American Conservatives tell about "socialized medicine" are pure fantasy.

Good point. But they mystery of mysteries in this country is the simple fact that conservatives benefit from the VA and MediCare, but don't want anybody else to benefit. They don't want to pay more in taxes to keep these programs viable for the long term.

Anecdotally? That statement absolutely rings true. I utilize the VA hospital in Manhattan as much as I can. They provide world class medicine and the doctors and nurses are very professional and courteous.

Oh. I'm glad to hear how happy I am with the VA.

I don't know what cyclo wrote since he's on my IGNORE list.

However, in response to Finn, the following is true. About 60% of MDs today are refusing to take medicaid patients. Many MDs refuse to take anymore medicare patients than they already have due to the low pay rates for these patients.

Almost all medical practices today limit their physicians to a set number of patients that they can manage and do so well. Many senior MDs in the primary care field limit the patient load based on the medical issues their patients face. Seniors ( on medicare or not ) are expected to face more medical issues than an individual in their 20s or 30s. Thus Seniors may take up moreof a Doctor's time, and as a result the physicians may see fit to limit the number of seniors to a certain number.

Another fact that is now entered into equation of patient care is the
accountability forms the Gov wants to be filled out by MDs. The Doctors then are given a "grade " and paid according to the final grade. I don't know if the accountability forms are today in general use, but they're talked about in medical journals.

Another tool used by Doctors today to limit patient load among the primary care crowd, is to take on a patient and then after a while to dismiss them.
One case reported in the newspaper , and also posted on TV concerned the case of an overweight female, who was being seen by a female MD. After
having this overweight woman as a patient for a certain amount of time, the MD told the patient that because of her weight, she could no longer treat her as a patient, because the overweight woman was presenting a danger to the MD's staff. I suppose the danger had to do with lifting the patient on and off the table or into a chair.

Whatever, the patient was discharged and left to find another PCP.

Now, the issue becomes something even more dangerous. Was the patient's weight the real reason for the discharge? Could it have been the patient's race? Maybe it was the patient's religion.

Whatever, the reasons behind the discharge of the patient, the Doc got rid of her and the matter has not been legally resolved or pursued further.

If the MDs don't want a specific patient or even a group of patients, they'll find a way to remove them from their medical practices.

Fear tactics work with many people. Good try. How about "death panels?"

Why don't they finance their education the way I did and the way so many others did, get a job and pay for it themselves?
When I went to college, I went when I had the money to pay for it and quit when I didn't.
Sure, it took me a lot longer to get an education, but I didn't have any student debt and I did it on my own, without help from the govt or my parents.

No you do not.

Unfunded entitlement programs have contributed to the crisis, but I don't know the extent to which your heath care systems were involved.

I am using the European Crisis in specific states like Greece as an example of economic ruin. I could have used The Great Depression. One is more current than the other. Presumably there are a number of different factors that have contributed to both.

If an American entitlement program is a contributor to such ruin, it is an indication of program failure. Hopefully the charter for these programs isn't do as much as can be done until the economy tanks.