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Israel Under Attack: Does Anyone Care?

 
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2013 03:45 pm
You are pretty careless with your facts. For instance, Israel was never designed to be "an exclusively Jewish homeland. The Pals in its borders were essentially begged to stay and become citizens. And, indeed, there are over a million Pals living in Israel. There are also a multitude of other non-Jews living in peace within the borders.

You say that the, after the '67 war, Israel decided on certain permanent borders that included the WB and Gaza. This is false -- Israel has begged the Pals to come to a reasonable agreement that would lead to a Pal state. However, among other deal breakers, the Pals insist on a right of return to Israel of all Pals, not just those who abandoned Israel in 1948 to assist the invading Arab armies in destroying Israel. Such a provision would destroy the Jewish nation.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2013 06:15 pm
@georgeob1,
You wrote,
Quote:
Like most such issues and disputes the moral lines are often very difficult to draw.


Not from where I stand and observe how the Jews continue to expland their settlements by stealing Palestinian lands. Isreal is "supposed to be" a democracy. If Palestinians don't have legal protection for their property, it's not a democracy by any stretch of anyone's imagination. Maybe your's, but not mine.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2013 08:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Not from where I stand and observe how the Jews continue to expland their settlements by stealing Palestinian lands. Isreal is "supposed to be" a democracy. If Palestinians don't have legal protection for their property, it's not a democracy by any stretch of anyone's imagination. Maybe your's, but not mine.


Well first, nothing west of the Separation Fence is Palestinian land, and therefore Israel is not stealing it.

Second, the Palestinians largely live outside Israel. Only people who live inside Israel would benefit from Israel's internal rights and protections.

And third, while "legal protections" and "democracy" are both very good things, they are not the same thing. It is pretty silly to pretend that the definition of democracy requires the existence of internal rights and protections. (That said, I'm sure Israel has plenty of legal rights and protections for those who actually live inside their country.)
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:16 am
According to a recent UN report: Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories, the Zionists are stealing Palestinian land and violating their rights. The Zionists are arrogating land beyond the 1949 Green Line which is internationally recognized as the boundary between Israel and Palestine, and repressing the Palestinians therein.
Quote:
‘Israeli settlements’ are located beyond the 1949 Green Line and include structures in East Jerusalem and in Area “C” of the West Bank. The Oslo Accords established Area “A” comprising approximately 18 per cent of the West Bank and encompassing urban Palestinian areas under full control of the Palestinian Authority; Area “B” representing about 22 per cent of the vast majority of Palestinian rural areas, under Palestinian civil control while the Israeli army has security control; and Area “C” comprising an estimated 60 per cent of the territory, under full Israeli control for security, planning and construction purposes. Settlements are generally located amongst the more vulnerable sections of Palestinian society, predominantly agrarian villages.

. . .

Since 1967, Israeli Governments have openly led and directly participated in the planning, construction, development, consolidation and/or encouragement of settlements by including explicit provisions in the fundamental policy instrument (Basic policy guidelines), establishing governmental structures and implementing specific measures. These specific measures include: i) building infrastructure; ii) encouraging Jewish migrants to Israel to move to settlements; iii) sponsoring economic activities; iv) supporting settlements through public services delivery and development projects; and v) seizing Palestinian land, some privately owned, requisitioning land for “military needs”, declaring or registering land as “State Land” and expropriating land for “public needs”.


Quote:
Information presented to the Mission demonstrates that distinct legal systems exist in the OPT and are applied separately to Israeli settlers and Palestinians. Broadly, Israelis in Area C are subject to Israeli domestic law enforced by the police and courts in Israel. A patchwork of Israeli military orders and Ottoman, British and Jordanian legislation is applied to Palestinians, who are also subject to a military court system with a wide jurisdictional reach.

Through “channelling” Israeli civil law into the territory of settlements, “legal zones” have been established within the West Bank where Israeli laws apply to settlers in order, for example, to regulate the status and authority of governmental institutions within settlements. These laws do not apply to Palestinians. Other Israeli laws are applied personally to Israelis in the West Bank, giving them preferential legal status over Palestinians. A matrix of military orders applies personally, by law or by practice, only to Palestinians to regulate and control most aspects of daily life, including by restricting an extensive range of rights. Israelis and Palestinians are also treated differently by the same laws. For instance, some military orders designate areas in the OPT as “closed military zones/areas”. With the exception of military training or firing zones, only Palestinians are prohibited from entering such areas unless they have a permit, even if the area encompasses Palestinian land, thereby denying Palestinians access to or ownership of land. The so-called “seam zone” is closed to Palestinians, while Israelis and foreign visitors have unrestricted access. Certain other Israeli laws expressly discriminate against Palestinians. In 2012, the Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination reiterated its concern about the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision) that suspends, with rare exceptions, family reunification between an Israeli citizen and a person residing in the OPT, with a severe impact on family rights.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:41 am
@InfraBlue,
Israel is condemned for going beyond certain borders between the state of Israel and Pal areas. But the Pals have always gone beyond the borders to attack Israel. They have never respected the borders. Thus, why is Israel condemned for going over the borders? It doesn't make good sense.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 12:14 pm
@Advocate,
You fail to understand the simple definition of "ethics." Stealing is wrong under any circumstance, but especially when one group of citizens don't have any legal right to their property.

Quote:

eth·ic
noun \ˈe-thik\

Definition of ETHIC

1 plural but sing or plural in constr: the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation


2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics> <Christian ethics>

bplural but sing or plural in constr: the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics>

c: a guiding philosophy

d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>

3 plural: a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 12:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Obviously, you think that Pal ceaseless attacks on Israel are ethical. I don't.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:51 pm
@Advocate,
The difference in your comparison is that Israel is condemned for going beyond certain borders between the state of Israel and Pal areas to arrogate Palestinian land. The Palestinian militants have gone beyond the borders to attack Israel but haven't arrogated Israeli land. The Palestinian militants have gone beyond the borders to attack Israel in retaliation for the repression visited upon the Palestinians by the Zionists.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 03:23 pm
@Advocate,
Why you even bother to talk about Pals against Israel only makes your position weaker. The simple reason is that more innocent Pals have been killed by the Jews than the other way around. Numbers like logic means something to most people.

If somebody came and stole your land, would you just accept it? Be honest - for once.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
According to a recent UN report: Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories, the Zionists are stealing Palestinian land and violating their rights.


That is an anti-Semitic propaganda site. You may as well be linking to a Neo-Nazi webpage.



InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionists are arrogating land beyond the 1949 Green Line which is internationally recognized as the boundary between Israel and Palestine, and repressing the Palestinians therein.


Nonsense. That may have been the basis of the boundary had there been a negotiated settlement. But negotiations died when the UN abrogated the Oslo Accords.

Now Israel gets to draw the border where they please, and that means the border is going to be the path of the Separation Fence.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:05 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Israel is condemned for going beyond certain borders between the state of Israel and Pal areas. But the Pals have always gone beyond the borders to attack Israel. They have never respected the borders. Thus, why is Israel condemned for going over the borders? It doesn't make good sense.


That supposed "border" is imaginary in the first place. The actual border is going to be the Separation Fence.

But to answer your question, the only reason Israel is "condemned" is because the people who are doing the condemning are anti-Semites.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You fail to understand the simple definition of "ethics."


That's a funny accusation from someone who possesses neither understanding nor ethics.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Stealing is wrong under any circumstance,


Since the settlement construction is mostly being done west of the Separation Fence, there is no stealing. Israel is building on their own land.



cicerone imposter wrote:
but especially when one group of citizens don't have any legal right to their property.


The Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, and they do not have any property west of the Separation Fence.


Note: The retard was suggesting that all the Palestinians who live outside Israel, are Israeli citizens. My response should be read in that context. I do realize that some Palestinians live inside Israel, and are Israeli citizens, but they are not the ones being referred to here.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:07 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Obviously, you think that Pal ceaseless attacks on Israel are ethical. I don't.


CI is an anti-Semite. I expect the freak approves of all sorts of atrocities.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:11 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The difference in your comparison is that Israel is condemned for going beyond certain borders between the state of Israel and Pal areas to arrogate Palestinian land.


The Palestinians have no land west of the Separation Fence. Therefore almost all the settlers are living on Israeli land.



InfraBlue wrote:
The Palestinian militants have gone beyond the borders to attack Israel but haven't arrogated Israeli land. The Palestinian militants have gone beyond the borders to attack Israel in retaliation for the repression visited upon the Palestinians by the Zionists.


No, the Palestinian militants attack Israel because Palestinians like to murder civilians.

Israel has not "visited repression" on the Palestinians. They merely prevent the Palestinians from murdering innocent people.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
more innocent Pals have been killed by the Jews than the other way around.


Liar.

And even if that were actually true (it isn't), any innocent Palestinians who die are killed accidentally as Israel defends themselves from Palestinian murderers.

All the innocent Israelis who die are killed because the Palestinians like to murder innocent people.



cicerone imposter wrote:
If somebody came and stole your land, would you just accept it?


No one is stealing any land here. Almost all the settlement construction is happening west of the Separation Fence, on land that belongs to Israel.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Be honest - for once.


You of all people have no business falsely accusing other people of dishonesty.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:54 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
That is an anti-Semitic propaganda site. You may as well be linking to a Neo-Nazi webpage.


Yeah, and the world is out to get the Zionists.

It's the world that has the psycho-sociological disorder, not the Zionists.

Quote:
InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionists are arrogating land beyond the 1949 Green Line which is internationally recognized as the boundary between Israel and Palestine, and repressing the Palestinians therein.


Nonsense. That may have been the basis of the boundary had there been a negotiated settlement. But negotiations died when the UN abrogated the Oslo Accords.

Now Israel gets to draw the border where they please, and that means the border is going to be the path of the Separation Fence.


No, the Zionists have arrogated land since well before the Oslo Accords. They're merely using Oslo as a pretext to continue their arrogation of Palestinian land.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 12:37 am
@InfraBlue,
oralboy has a fallback on the typical anti-Semite charge when they can't defend it on ethical, legal, or common sense grounds.

Quote:
oralloy wrote:

That is an anti-Semitic propaganda site. You may as well be linking to a Neo-Nazi webpage.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 10:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI stop hiding behind the convenient lefty argument that "Criticicsm of Israel is not Anti-Semitism."

You've proven yourself to be an anti-Semite in this forum.

Better just to lay low and hope no one noticed.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 07:59 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
It's the world that has the psycho-sociological disorder, not the Zionists.


Hardly the world. Anti-Semites just infest certain parts of the UN.

They may pretend they speak for the world, but they don't.



InfraBlue wrote:
No, the Zionists have arrogated land since well before the Oslo Accords.


Nonsense. You can't "arrogate" land that you legitimately own to begin with.



InfraBlue wrote:
They're merely using Oslo as a pretext to continue their arrogation of Palestinian land.


No, the Oslo accords were (past tense) a genuine attempt by Israel to negotiate peace based on 1967 borders.

Now that the UN has killed the Oslo Accords, Israel is free to unilaterally make the Separation Fence their border.

There is no arrogation. Israel legitimately owns 100% of the land west of the Separation Fence.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 11:46 am
@oralloy,
Reapeating yourself doesn't make your arguments any less fictive.
 

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