Israel Under Attack: Does Anyone Care?

@Frank Apisa,

I never denied that Zionism had an impact on relations. I took issue with your statement that things were "relatively peaceful."

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:
That is untrue. There was little peace before zionism.

That might be true. Or it might not be true.

But actually this wasn't questioned.

Your statement is untrue. Frank said things were relatively peaceful before zionism.

BTW, I don't read German. A couple of papers in German hardly establish zionism.

I guess it is your hope that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews.

3 Replies

@Advocate,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5296042)
I never denied that Zionism had an impact on relations. I took issue with your statement that things were "relatively peaceful."

Well apparently you are suggesting that there were wars or outbreaks of violence that were exceptional enough to make my comment false.

I've asked you several times for examples of these outbreaks or instances of violence...but nothing has been forthcoming.

Can you do it?

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@Advocate,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5296042)
I never denied that Zionism had an impact on relations. I took issue with your statement that things were "relatively peaceful."

See above. What are you saying that happened in this area between Jews and Arabs...that impacts on what I said.

Name any instances of violence...and I will furnish five instances of European violence.

The area WAS RELATIVELY PEACEFUL before the Zionist movement and the establishment of Israel.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

A couple of papers in German hardly establish zionism.

I guess it is your hope that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews.

1. You don't seem to have any clue about zionism and where that idea came from.
2. Your guess is completely wrong - studying history at a university doesn't include such at all.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I guess it is your hope that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews.

You are raising a rather shopworn canard suggesting the only alternative to a state that is exclusively Jewish (at whatever cost and suffering this may impose on others) is the extermination of all Jews. That is an obvious lie, notwithstanding the considerable efforts of Zionist propagandists to reinforce it.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

The rioting to which you're referring wasn't generally "anti-Jew," specifically, it was anti-Zionist seeing as how it was a reaction to the encroachment and the increasing repression visited upon the Palestinians by those European immigrants.

The Mizrahim--who were the indigenous Jews--and Palestinians lived peacefully in Palestine until the appearance of the Zionists in the mid 19th century.

That is untrue. There was little peace before zionism.

"In August 1929, relations between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine broke down. The focal point of this discontent was Jerusalem.

The primary cause of trouble was the increased influx of Jews who had emigrated to Palestine. The number of Jews in the region had doubled in ten years

The city of Jerusalem also had major religious significance for both Arabs and Jews and over 200 deaths occurred in just four days in August (23rd to the 26th).

Arab nationalism was whipped up by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haji Amin al-Husseini. He claimed that the number of Jews threatened the very lifestyle of the Arabs in Palestine.

The violence that occurred in August 1929 did not deter Jews from going to Palestine. In 1931, 4,075 Jews emigrated to the region. In 1935, it was 61,854. The Mufti estimated that by the 1940’s there would be more Jews in Palestine than Arabs and that their power in the area would be extinguished on a simple numerical basis.

In May 1936, more violence occurred and the British had to restore law and order using the military. Thirty four soldiers were killed in the process. The violence did not stop. In fact, it became worse after November 1937.

For the Arabs there were two enemies – the Jews and the British authorities based in Palestine via their League mandate.

For the Jews there were also two enemies – the Arabs and the British."

-- Learning History

Those incidents that you quote are precisely the rioting that was perpetrated against the increasing Zionist immigration to and encroachment on Palestine.

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@georgeob1,

His attempts at perpetuating such outright lies goes beyond the pale. It only proves that his ability to live with those lies provides him with some sense of justice in how they treat Palestinians.

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I just want to go on record as saying that because I feel Advocate is incorrect and one-sided on the issues being discussed here…I AM NOT CALLING HIM A LIAR.

I want also to go on record that I understand why Jews want a homeland; I understand why they feel a homeland is necessary to keep them safe from some of the conduct that has come in their direction; and I understand why some Jews, like Advocate, are so one-sided in their opinions about what is happening in that area.

The notion of a state of Israel makes sense to me…and I see no reason for there not to be a state of Israel.

BUT…to put it where they did despite the historical identification of Jews with that area…was a HUGE mistake. They should have opted for something more like Brigham Young did for the Mormons.

It is where it is now, though…and nothing will change where it is except annihilation of Israel by the Arabs of the Middle East…or the annihilation of all the Arabs of the Middle East by the Israelis. I think the annihilation of Israel is a more likely scenario than the eradication of all the Arabs in that area, so UNHAPPILY I think that is what will ultimately occur, because there will NEVER be real peace in that area again unless one of those two scenarios play out.

To the people making a charge that Advocate is lying: That charge is, in my opinion, baseless and inappropriate.

To Advocate: To suppose that what is being discussed here means that any of us hope for the “finish to (Nazi) Germany's genocide of the Jews…is inappropriate.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

To Advocate: To suppose that what is being discussed here means that any of us hope for the “finish to (Nazi) Germany's genocide of the Jews…is inappropriate.

He didn't write that, Frank,

but wrote:

I guess it is your hope that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews.

Nota bene: "Germany's". If he had meant 'Nazi Germany, he certainly would have written the correct name, namely 'German Reich', or 'Third Reich' or something like that.

What I only wanted to do was to clarify something about Zionism. Which actually really started with Moses Hess (what even Herzl acknowledged). And the first colonies in Palestine were be German settlers - out of the 30,000 (European) settler until 1929, nearly 2/3 returned to their original countries.

And their have been tensions around 1900 in Palestine: between the Jewish colonies and Christians - see e.g. the report by the inspectors of the Odessa "Central-Comité zur Unterstützung der jüdischen Ackerbauern und Handwerker in Palästina und Syrien" ('Central committee for the suport of Jewish farmers and craftsmen in Palestine and Syria') as of 1899/1900.

These tensions were the reasons, why the Jewish settlers supported the ... the opposition of the Christians.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

To Advocate: To suppose that what is being discussed here means that any of us hope for the “finish to (Nazi) Germany's genocide of the Jews…is inappropriate.
He didn't write that, Frank,

I know he didn't...and I hope you realized that the addition I made in the way I made it...was meant for him!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I noticed that you added it, Frank.
And I'm sure that you hope, he'll notice it, too.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Advocate wrote:

I guess it is your hope that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews.

You are raising a rather shopworn canard suggesting the only alternative to a state that is exclusively Jewish (at whatever cost and suffering this may impose on others) is the extermination of all Jews. That is an obvious lie, notwithstanding the considerable efforts of Zionist propagandists to reinforce it.

You seem to be misquoting me. Israel is hardly exclusively for Jews, and should not be. It is a country of many minorities who co-exist very well.

Walter is an intelligent guy, and he works assidiously to find factoids to use against Israel. He never has a good word for Jews or Israel. I guess I find this particularly sickening when you consider that he is a German. The Germans planned to erradicate Jews from anywhere in the world. I feel that Walter would be very happy had Germany succeeded.

2 Replies

Walter makes the point that it was Nazi Germany that carried out the Holacaust. However, the Nazis essentially had the full support of the German people. Books have been written about this, notably one by a person named Goldhagen.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Adam Jones ( one of "Fifty Key Thinkers on the Holocaust and Genocide", as you certainly know) wrote about Goldhagen's book that the book is undermined by a casual approach to basic research, and by the author’s tendency to overreach and overstate his case.

Since I researched quite a bit about the police during the Hitler period (that's one of the focusses of Goldhagen), I agree with his conclusions on many terms. To generalise this for all people living here during that time - well, I think it not true.

However, all that happened between 1933 and 1945, in the Deutsches Reich (aka 'Third Reich', 'Nazi Germany').
I really don't think that anybody in any country believes that Germany is finishing the genocide on Jews. Without doubt, there might be some here who think such - some, in a number that is equal to the number of those in the UK, Spain, Brasil, Canada, the USA ...

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@Advocate,

I had had to pleasure to have met george personally, I think, that you misquoted him totally.

So I'm not going to response to that quote.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

I did notice, of course, that there had been Advocate's response within george's original response.

I'm wondering how I have changed within 24 hours - from someone who hopes "that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews" to someone who would be very happy had Germany succeeded to eradicate Jews from anywhere in the world.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I did notice, of course, that there had been Advocate's response within george's original response.

I'm wondering how I have changed within 24 hours - from someone who hopes "that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews" to someone who would be very happy had Germany succeeded to eradicate Jews from anywhere in the world.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

And possibly of the catholic pope, though that is an arena for contentious argument. I don't agree that all germans were in reich agreement.

I follow this thread as a laughable pollyanna, that somehow peoples can live together, if only seventy two thousand good things happened..

Which brings up miscegenation, a word used about race, but applicable re cultures.

The Walter I have met doesn't fit the implications hurled here.

2 Replies

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I did notice, of course, that there had been Advocate's response within george's original response.

I'm wondering how I have changed within 24 hours - from someone who hopes "that the Pals finish Germany's genocide of the Jews" to someone who would be very happy had Germany succeeded to eradicate Jews from anywhere in the world.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

You have literally no idea about what I do. And a lot less about what I think and/or feel.

0 Replies

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