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Israel Under Attack: Does Anyone Care?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 10:03 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5295099)
My "take" is pretty implicit. It is mainly that your question, containing a faulty premise, is difficult to answer.


Let's talk about what you consider the faulty premise.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 11:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5295099)
My "take" is pretty implicit. It is mainly that your question, containing a faulty premise, is difficult to answer.


Let's talk about what you consider the faulty premise.



Sure, it is your statement that relations were relatively good before the state of Israel was born.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 12:24 pm
@Advocate,
Okay...I contend that there was relative peace between the Arabs and Jews in that area prior to the 1940's--that they did not war with each other and got along in relative peace.

And to make this easy for you, I will limit myself to "relative to the European countries."

Here is how I suggest we proceed:

You name a war fought between Jews and Arabs...and I will name five fought between other European powers. No repeats.

Start!
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 12:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I don't care to be quized by you. Just make your point.

I might mention there probably were no wars, in the usual sense, because neither group had a country.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 12:41 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5295271)
I don't care to be quized by you. Just make your point.

I might mention there probably were no wars, in the usual sense, because neither group had a country.


I suggested the area was much more peaceful before the creation of Israel...that the parties, while not in love with each other, DID get along much, much better before (talk of and the creation of) Israel.

You are suggesting that to be "a faulty premise."

How else can we do this thing?

There were no wars before Israel came into existence. Now there have been several wars. The people got along relatively peacefully before Israel came into existence...now they are at each others throats.

My premise is anything but faulty.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 01:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Do you think that anti-Jew rioting in the area to be relatively peaceful? If you were a victim of the rioting, you would differently.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 01:49 pm
@Advocate,
Are you referring to the Muslim-Christian Associations? You do know that many (most) of the opposing Muslim National Associations were sponsored and founded by Zionists, don't you? (Source: reports in Jewish papers of that time, e.g. "Der Jude" ('The Jew') or "Palestina".)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 02:18 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5295171)
Do you think that anti-Jew rioting in the area to be relatively peaceful? If you were a victim of the rioting, you would differently.


No, Advocate...I do not think that to be relatively peaceful.

BUT HOW MUCH OF THAT WAS THERE?

How does it compare (relatively) with all the wars fought in Europe.

Tell us. How much of that was there before talk of a state of Israel?
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 03:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I don't consider the wars in Europe to be a reasonable comparative.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 04:45 pm
@Advocate,
What does that have to do with the attitudes of Palestinains towards immigrants who clearly intended to take over a portion of the land for their exclusive control? It appears you are trying to simply wave off the central issue here.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 04:53 pm
@Advocate,
Well...since I said RELATIVELY peaceful...what do you want to use as a "relative" faction? Mars?

I even stated it was relatively peaceful when compared with the other countries of the Mediterranean littoral.

The area, Advocate, was relatively peaceful...and the Arabs and Jews got along relatively fine prior to talk about and installation of Israel.

That is a given.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 04:58 pm
@Advocate,
The rioting to which you're referring wasn't generally "anti-Jew," specifically, it was anti-Zionist seeing as how it was a reaction to the encroachment and the increasing repression visited upon the Palestinians by those European immigrants.

The Mizrahim--who were the indigenous Jews--and Palestinians lived peacefully in Palestine until the appearance of the Zionists in the mid 19th century.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Apr, 2013 05:14 pm
@Advocate,
Again with the anti-jew assumptions.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 09:30 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

The rioting to which you're referring wasn't generally "anti-Jew," specifically, it was anti-Zionist seeing as how it was a reaction to the encroachment and the increasing repression visited upon the Palestinians by those European immigrants.

The Mizrahim--who were the indigenous Jews--and Palestinians lived peacefully in Palestine until the appearance of the Zionists in the mid 19th century.


That is untrue. There was little peace before zionism.

"In August 1929, relations between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine broke down. The focal point of this discontent was Jerusalem.

The primary cause of trouble was the increased influx of Jews who had emigrated to Palestine. The number of Jews in the region had doubled in ten years

The city of Jerusalem also had major religious significance for both Arabs and Jews and over 200 deaths occurred in just four days in August (23rd to the 26th).

Arab nationalism was whipped up by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haji Amin al-Husseini. He claimed that the number of Jews threatened the very lifestyle of the Arabs in Palestine.

The violence that occurred in August 1929 did not deter Jews from going to Palestine. In 1931, 4,075 Jews emigrated to the region. In 1935, it was 61,854. The Mufti estimated that by the 1940’s there would be more Jews in Palestine than Arabs and that their power in the area would be extinguished on a simple numerical basis.

In May 1936, more violence occurred and the British had to restore law and order using the military. Thirty four soldiers were killed in the process. The violence did not stop. In fact, it became worse after November 1937.

For the Arabs there were two enemies – the Jews and the British authorities based in Palestine via their League mandate.

For the Jews there were also two enemies – the Arabs and the British."

-- Learning History
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 09:42 am
@Advocate,
Quote:

That is untrue. There was little peace before zionism.


That is nonsense, Advocate.

Zionism had its start in the mid to late 1800's.

It was the start of Zionism...that started the increasing unrest between Jews and Arabs in that area. And the creation of the state of Israel was the final straw...the one that insures that there will NEVER be true peace there.

But to blame the problem, as you do, on the Arabs is an absurdity.

Take Zionism and the state of Israel out of the equation...and you have an area where Jews and Arabs have lived for thousands of years in relative peace.

I have no idea of why you are fighting this obvious truth, but the fact that you are fighting it doesn't make it any less true.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 09:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Zionism was not thought of until 1897, and it really had no substance until many years later.

The Mufti was upset that a lot of Jews were moving to the area in 1929, which was their right, and fomented riots and other attacks on the Jews. In 1929, the area was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 09:59 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
That is untrue. There was little peace before zionism.
That might be true. Or it might not be true.

But actually this wasn't questioned.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 10:03 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5296034)
Zionism was not thought of until 1897, and it really had no substance until many years later.

The Mufti was upset that a lot of Jews were moving to the area in 1929, which was their right, and fomented riots and other attacks on the Jews. In 1929, the area was part of the Ottoman Empire.


Okay...let's use 1897...and even "many years later!"

What wars between Jews and Arabs were fought prior to that?

Advocate...surely you see the point I am trying to make. Why pretend that Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel had insignificant impact on the relative peace in that area?

It is so obvious a significant factor...it cannot logically be denied.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 10:04 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Zionism was not thought of until 1897, and it really had no substance until many years later.
You really should educate yourself. Already before 1897 Max Nordau wrote the often quoted essay "Zionismus und die Colonien in Palästina" ('Zionism and the colonies in Palestine') ....

And in 1886, Moses Jacobson wrote the essay "Die heilige Sprache und der moderne Zionismus" ('The holy language and the modern Zionism') ...

So it certainly was known and discussed.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 10:29 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
In 1929, the area was part of the Ottoman Empire.
???

http://i50.tinypic.com/znlsp0.jpg

I suppose, you are referring to Western Wall Uprising, which happened in Jerusalem? There was an British Deputy High Commissioner, British police, the Shaw commission ...
0 Replies
 
 

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