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Israel Under Attack: Does Anyone Care?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Mar, 2013 10:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
I took this picture of Bethlehem on my first visit to Israel. This is where the Palestinians live; a virtual prison in their own country. Advocate wishes to remain ignorant of the reality in Israel, because his morals is at stake.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/P1010055-1.jpg
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Mar, 2013 03:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The Pals earned everything they got from Israel fair and square.

It is so silly how the Israelis hate to be blown up and otherwise murdered. No country facing what Israel faces from the Pals would do anything differently, provided it had the means to do so.

Don't you see how one-sided you are?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Mar, 2013 04:38 pm
@Advocate,
It's also silly how the Jews want the Palestinians to remain silent while their lands are stolen from them - without so much as any legal rights to their property.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 08:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's also silly how the Jews want the Palestinians to remain silent while their lands are stolen from them - without so much as any legal rights to their property.


First, the lands are not owned by the Pals. Second, the land constitutes prizes of war.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 08:31 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
First, the lands are not owned by the Pals. Second, the land constitutes prizes of war.


So you agree that the Palestinians...or the Arabs for that matter...can win it back by defeating Israel. Or they can die trying.

Not a very good formula for peace!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 09:12 am
@Advocate,
By Matt Giwer.
Quote:
The Jews, euphemistically called the Zionists or the Israelis, did in fact steal the land from the Palestinians. They actually bought and paid for at most 9% of it. In 1948 they took over 73% of it. Do the math. They expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their land and stole it. Most of the 200,000 or so they did not manage to expel were driven off their land into ghettos and their land was stolen. If you are not a Jew in Israel you have as much chance for justice as a Black in the South a century ago.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 09:14 am
@cicerone imposter,
From the Jewish Virtual Library - in support of the above post.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrefugees.html

Don't let facts get in the way of your fantasy, Advocate. You're the worst kind of Jew; someone who doesn't care for equality of all humans.

Keep living in your fairy tale life, you've already lost your soul.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 09:25 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

By Matt Giwer.
Quote:
The Jews, euphemistically called the Zionists or the Israelis, did in fact steal the land from the Palestinians. They actually bought and paid for at most 9% of it. In 1948 they took over 73% of it. Do the math. They expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their land and stole it. Most of the 200,000 or so they did not manage to expel were driven off their land into ghettos and their land was stolen. If you are not a Jew in Israel you have as much chance for justice as a Black in the South a century ago.



The land taken by the Zionists, besides what was bought, was mostly desert, and deemed wasteland.

As for the so-called expelled Pals, the Zionists begged the Pals to stay. However, the Arab countries getting ready to invade Israel called upon the resident Pals to abandon Israel so as to ease the Arab invasion. As you know, large numbers of Arabs stayed and were deemed Israeli citizens with equal rights. In fact, there are now 1.7 million Muslim Israelis in Israel, with some in the parliament, military, etc., and have full voting rights. They are the most prosperous group of Muslims in the ME.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 10:10 am
@Advocate,
Desert and wasteland? That's the reason they had the right to steal their land? Come on, Advocate, you know better than that! Have you ever been to Las Vegas or Palm Springs in California? Yea, they were "desert and wasteland" once.

You have lost all common sense and rational thinking. Get a grip on reality for once!

By your standard, it's okay to steal all those desert countries in the Middle East, because they're "desert and wasteland." Have you ever been to Dubai?

Oh, and they have oil! You know, black gold.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 02:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think you know very well that the desert land you refer to was not owned by anyone.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 03:08 pm
@Advocate,
Did you ever study law? It's a well know precept that's commonly understood in this world which says "possession is 9/10th of the law." The Palestinians and Palestine has over a 2,500 year history; that precedes the time of christ.

The Palestinians were expelled from their land by the Jews in the 20th century - over 700,000 of them with the sole purpose to take the land for themselves. That's stealing and illegal by any international laws.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 03:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From the NYT.
Quote:
U.N. Panel Says Israeli Settlement Policy Violates Law


GENEVA — Israel has pursued a creeping annexation of the Palestinian territories through the creation of Jewish settlements and committed multiple violations of international law, possibly including war crimes, a United Nations panel said Thursday, calling for an immediate halt to all settlement activity and the withdrawal of all settlers.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 03:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You're the worst kind of Jew; someone who doesn't care for equality of all humans.


This is exactly what galls me. Most Jewish people are highly intelligent, yet many maintain this land, Palestine, is Jewish land from 2000 years ago, their ancient homeland...they cannot produce a deed to said land. They've even started this propaganda rhetoric that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. These Jews are trying to re-write history. Palestine is the name given by the Romans and any of the native people are Palestinians.

As an American taxpayer I RESENT my money being spent to suppress the Palestinian people!

Those who don't remember the past might be doomed to relive it.
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 12:19 am
@Moment-in-Time,
What the hell is the "worst kind of Jew"? I believe the phrase expresses a prejudgment of Jews, a prejudice, which I suspect Cicerone would deny if he was accused of it explicitly.

While it is certainly true that the wish for a return to the land of Israel from which the Jews were expelled by Rome in the 2nd century, has been an explicit part of Jewish culture and religion more or less ever since the expulsion, that was NOT the proximate cause for the mass exodus of Jews from war-ravaged Europe in 1946 & 7.

It is simply a fact that the large scale actual return of large numbers of Jews didn't occur until after the Holicaust, and until after surving, displaced Jews, who, in most cases, lost everything but their lives, found to their dismay that they were either not welcome or were decidedly uncomfortable back in their former European homes immediately after the war. This is understandable in that in most cases their homes were either destroyed or occupied by someone else. In addition the roundup and transport of Jews across Europe occured in many cases with the passive (in some cases active) participation of their former neighbors. Suspicion and mistrust replaced their former relationships. THIS WAS THE REAL CAUSE FOR THE EXODUS TO PALESTINE. It was certainly rationalized by a salient part of the Jewish tradition, but the fact that there had been no large scale return of Jews for almost 1,800 years while the tradition was ever present, clearly tells us something.

The situation in Palestine today is a tragedy in that the parties involved were initially driven by understandable motives which did not necessarily require injuring the other.

Despite that the current conflict arose because of a string of selfish and exploitive acts on both sides. Each side has thoroughly rationalized and justified its role in continuing the conflict, but neither has invested much energy in the creation of a tolerant society in which both could thrive.

For me, I blame most (not all) of this on Israel because they have more power and greater ability to manage the siutuation. Instead they have allowed themselves to be driven by their worst sectarian zealots to the notion of a permanent Jewish state. In part this occurred becauser things like appropriating Palestinian land made life cheaper and better for many. Soon enough opalestinian violence became a sufficient rationalization for everyone in Israel. I'm sure an analogous situation playerd itself out on the other side. Sadly these conflicts can last centuries, and there are many others of them in this world.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 05:10 am
@georgeob1,

You made some excellent points here, George.

I agree with most of what George said here. Also, I would caution everyone not to mistaken concern for the Arabs and Palestinians in the area…with anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli sentiments.

I understand and appreciate why Jews wanted a state of Israel…and why they wanted to go somewhere they could consider home. But what has happened is that they have gone overboard and allowed things to happen to the Arabs of the area that they would deplore if those things had happened to them.

The creation of the state of Israel in that was a mistake; the cost was going to be continuous hatred and fighting between the Jews and the Arabs…and the cost is being paid and will continue to be paid by both parties.

To suggest that there can be a peaceful solution while the state of Israel exists there and dominates the area is, in my opinion, nothing more than unreasonable, wishful thinking. It is so unlikely to happen…it must be considered impossible.

Israel, as a Jewish state, cannot exist in that area. Since American politicians seem insistent upon the existence of a state of Israel…perhaps we can offer to exchange a tract of land in America for a Jewish state…and turn the present Jewish state over to the United Nations as a protectorate. Any Jew or Arab who wants to live there should be able to do so, but with laws set up NOT by Jews or Arabs, but by people outside that particularly contentious playground…and with a police force outside the control of either.

Short of that, I would love to see American support of Israel become much, much more realistic. We, by our unquestioning and insistent support of Israel, have become as much a part of the problem as the creation of a state of Israel there is. We should butt he hell out…or become much more even handed (which we are unlikely to do.)
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 07:49 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
In addition the roundup and transport of Jews across Europe occured in many cases with the passive (in some cases active) participation of their former neighbors. Suspicion and mistrust replaced their former relationships. THIS WAS THE REAL CAUSE FOR THE EXODUS TO PALESTINE. It was certainly rationalized by a salient part of the Jewish tradition, but the fact that there had been no large scale return of Jews for almost 1,800 years while the tradition was ever present, clearly tells us something.


Your entire post is very interesting and enlightening. I could not agree more with the above statement regarding Jewish exodus to Palestine. Many Jews were reluctant to go Palestine, and wished to return to their European homes before the Holocaust, but as you say, the climate was very hostile to any Jews returning so soon after Hitler. Also, a few years ago during the airlift of Jews from Russia, many Russian Jews simply did not want to go to Israel. They had wanted to go to Germany, Britain and lastly, the US. They had *NO* option but to go to Israel.

After WW2, many European Jewish homes had been taken over by non-Jews and this is what happened in 1948 when Palestinians were chased out of their homes which were taken over by European Jews. As your post so eloquently mentions after "almost 1,800 years while the tradition was ever present" no realistic thought of returning to Palestine was taken seriously....ancient Israel was a long-established custom, state of mind, it the phrase that traditionally ends the seder, "Next Year in Jerusalem."

Thank you for giving me further insight.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 11:23 am
@Moment-in-Time,
It is interesting how you speak about the intentions and feelings of Jews after WWII. But the truth of the matter is that you don't know what you are talking about.

Israel, an independent state, had every right to welcome Jews from all over. Every country has its own culture and law.

It is interesting that the Pals never sought statehood before Israel was formed. They had a great opportunity to secure statehood when Jordan controlled the WB, but failed to try to get it. Since then, the Pals have been holding out for the right of "return" for all Pals, and not the Pals who fled their homes in 1948. This, of course, would destroy Israel.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 12:21 pm
@Advocate,

Quote:
It is interesting that the Pals never sought statehood before Israel was formed.


Perhaps that is because they realized what a state of that sort would do to the Middle East.

Too bad the people who decided to plunk the state of Israel down there were not so enlightened. Maybe lots of trouble in that area could have been avoided.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 01:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:


Quote:
It is interesting that the Pals never sought statehood before Israel was formed.


Perhaps that is because they realized what a state of that sort would do to the Middle East.

Too bad the people who decided to plunk the state of Israel down there were not so enlightened. Maybe lots of trouble in that area could have been avoided.


Interesting! What would a Pal state do to the ME? Do you think such a state would be inadvisable?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 01:25 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Interesting! What would a Pal state do to the ME? Do you think such a state would be inadvisable?


YES!

Any state in that area which is reserved for Arab or Jewish domination is a sure killer of peace...and just about guarantees that hatred, discord, bloodshed, and no peace will prevail.

That is what I have been saying all along.

The area was relatively peaceful for centuries with Jews and Arabs living there in relative harmony together.

FOR CENTURIES.

Then a state dedicated to one of those parties was installed...and all hell has broken lose.

Do you really not see that?
 

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