10
   

Romney Repeats Conservative cop-out on the Middle East conflict

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 07:52 pm
@izzythepush,
At least somebody else knows what the problems are in Israel.

Most Americans don't know or care about this crime.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 08:37 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
I see oralloy is being his usual "stick to the facts" kind of guy....


Yes. Indeed I am. Thanks for noticing.



parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Not much support on the Palestinian side. They have a history of refusing to negotiate. And even when they do end up at the negotiating table, all they do is try to murder as many children as they can.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Quote:
Between the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000 and December 2011, 1331 Palestinian and 129 Israeli children under the age of 18 have been killed, according to B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights monitoring group


The "dead children gambit" is a Palestinian favorite, but it never works on me.

The dead Palestinian "children" here (where they actually existed and were not fabricated), were 17 years olds who were killed in self defense as they tried to murder innocent people.

The dead Israeli children here, were innocently minding their own business when a Palestinian came up and murdered them in cold blood.



And even with the small handful of Palestinian children who actually were innocently minding their own business when they were killed, they were bystanders killed accidentally as innocent people were defending themselves from Palestinian murderers.

Even those few cases are a far cry from a Palestinian intentionally killing an Israeli child in cold blood.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 08:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
izzythepush wrote:
The main barrier to peace isn't Palestinian intransigence, but the illegal construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.


At least somebody else knows what the problems are in Israel.

Most Americans don't know or care about this crime.


Not even remotely a crime to build settlements. Especially since most of the construction is west of the separation fence, on land that Israel is going to annex.

The only problem in Israel is the fact that the Palestinians refuse to make peace.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 09:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Why do news agencies bother with polls when they need only consult CI. He always knows what most Americans know or believe (and it always seems to be the opposite of what he knows and believes).
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 09:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Why indeed!
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2012 09:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cool
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 04:39 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
It's not reasonable to assume that at all... unless you yourself don't want peace yourself and want to pin it on the other side. Your argument is simplistic one that ignores the reality of the situation which includes a great deal of suffering for civilian Palestinians and Israelis alike.

For a two state solution to work is for both sides to agree to the 1967 borders with viable states for both Israel and Palestine. There have been brave leaders on both sides who have supported this solution. Unfortunately the extremists on both sides seem to be controlling the process.

I noticed that you accept that Palestinians are people. I want to give you credit for that.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 05:23 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

When used it refers to the Palestinian leadership, although given the fact that a majoirty of Palestinian people put Hamas in power in Gaza, it's reasonable to assume that the only peace they wish to see is that which will follow an Israeli surrender or extermination.




Oh for God's sake Finn, don't be so ridiculously simplistic. Going by that logic people vote Republican because they want to see all Latinos deported back to wherever it is they came from.

People voted Hamas for a number of reasons, not least the corruption in Fatah, and the feeling that Fatah was being far too supine in negotiations with Israel.

In Northern Ireland the Unionist Community abandoned the moderate UUP in favour of the hardline DUP, that didn't mean they abandoned the peace process, just that they wanted someone who wouldn't sell them out.

Hamas are willing to call a ceasefire for as long as 20 years. They won't abandon their commitment to a united state of Palestine, in the same way Sinn Fein won't abandon calls for a United Ireland. Both positions are largely emotional and rhetorical.

Give the Palestinians 20 years of peace and prosperity, and they won't want to go back to the way things are now.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 05:35 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
When used it refers to the Palestinian leadership, although given the fact that a majoirty of Palestinian people put Hamas in power in Gaza, it's reasonable to assume that the only peace they wish to see is that which will follow an Israeli surrender or extermination.


It's not reasonable to assume that at all... unless you yourself don't want peace yourself and want to pin it on the other side. Your argument is simplistic one that ignores the reality of the situation which includes a great deal of suffering for civilian Palestinians and Israelis alike.


The reality of the situation is the Palestinians refuse to make peace. They are only interested in murdering children.



maxdancona wrote:
For a two state solution to work is for both sides to agree to the 1967 borders with viable states for both Israel and Palestine.


Not necessarily.

That is what it would look like if the Palestinians achieved their state by negotiation.

But if the state is based on Israel drawing the borders as they please, it will not be based on the 1967 borders.



maxdancona wrote:
There have been brave leaders on both sides who have supported this solution.


Not really. The Palestinians do whatever they can to avoid negotiating peace.

And if they do end up coerced to the negotiating table, the Palestinians rush to murder as many children as they can until negotiations collapse.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 05:38 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
People voted Hamas for a number of reasons, not least the corruption in Fatah, and the feeling that Fatah was being far too supine in negotiations with Israel.


I guess Fatah didn't murder enough children for Palestinian tastes.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 05:54 am
@oralloy,
Israel kills way more children than Hamas and Fatah combined.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 05:57 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Ten Palestinian children were killed and at least 20 were wounded on Thursday morning after an Israeli truck carrying a fuel tank crashed into the school bus transporting the kindergarten children near the Qalandia checkpoint in Ramallah.

Israelis on Facebook were celebrating the deaths of the Palestinian children, writing derogatory statements on a wall of a news post regarding the accident.

The bus carrying the children collided with the truck at an intersection in Jaba'a, overturned, and caught on fire.

The children immediately died, while a further eight remain in a critical condition, according to medical officials with the Palestinian Red Cross.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has declared three days of mourning.

Ramallah-based journalist Diana Alzeer said the collision was likely an accident due to wet weather, and not politically motivated.

In Bethlehem, a 15-year-old boy died this morning after a truck skidded on a slippery road and ran the boy over.

A statement released by the police said they have opened an investigation and confirmed that the boy died on the spot. Emergency crews arrived to the scene and transferred the boy's body to a hospital in Beit Jala.

The Israeli comments have gone viral on Twitter, shocking users into disbelief at the level of racism and hatred directed towards the deceased Palestinian children.

Israel maintains a military occupation of the West Bank and Jerusalem, imposing harsh restrictions on indigenous Palestinians while providing privileges to illegal Jewish settlers.

Palestinians are frequently attacked and harassed by settlers as well as the Israeli military, often with impunity.


http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/4254
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 06:50 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Israel kills way more children than Hamas and Fatah combined.


Not if we exclude the "fake" deaths that the Palestinians concocted, exclude the 17-year-olds killed in self defense as they tried to murder others, and exclude bystanders killed accidentally as Israelis defended themselves from Palestinian murderers.

Do I detect a lack of name-calling in your last few posts? That's encouraging.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 06:56 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The Israeli comments have gone viral on Twitter, shocking users into disbelief at the level of racism and hatred directed towards the deceased Palestinian children.


I was pretty cruel in my own response to it, in fact.

Once you get used to nothing but hate and evil being thrown at you for so long, it's hard to make an about face and be nice about something.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 08:12 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

The dead Palestinian "children" here (where they actually existed and were not fabricated), were 17 years olds who were killed in self defense as they tried to murder innocent people.

That's funny. Do you have evidence of that or are ao and 12 year old Palestinians really 17 years old?
Quote:
The three Palestinian children killed in Gaza on Tuesday were only playing near rocket launchers targeted by Israeli troops, and were not connected with the terrorists, an army probe determined Thursday.

Ten-year-old Mahmoud Ghazal and his 12-year-old cousin, Yehiya Ghazal, died immediately. Their 10-year-old cousin Sara Ghazal was critically injured and died later.

The Israel Defense Forces said the children were killed after an army ground unit fired on Qassam launchers in the area.


This must be a 17 year old Palestinian
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62788000/jpg/_62788511_62788510.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19541416

Another 17 year old?
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/israeli-forces-killed-19-palestinian-children-in-gaza-in-2011/

I think you will find more children have been killed by Israeli airstrikes than Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians.

I love your argument that Palestinian dead children don't exist but are just made up. It seems you want to just pretend things don't exist if they don't fit in your fractured world view.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 08:21 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The reality of the situation is the Palestinians refuse to make peace. They are only interested in murdering children.

That is the kind of propaganda that has always been used. The devils kill children with pitchforks.

I guess we should not believe Israelis according to you.
http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
If Palestinians are targeting children why have the Israelis killed more children under the age of 17. Why do the number of fatalities by the Israelis include a HIGHER percentage of children killed than the Palestinians?
No matter how you read the statistics, you can't argue that Palestinians are targeting children and the Israelis aren't.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 08:26 am
@parados,
Oralboy is nothing but a hate-filled, unthinking little **** who fantasises about genocide and sexual violence. There's not a lot of point talking to him.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 09:29 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
That's funny. Do you have evidence of that or are ao and 12 year old Palestinians really 17 years old?
Quote:
The three Palestinian children killed in Gaza on Tuesday were only playing near rocket launchers targeted by Israeli troops, and were not connected with the terrorists, an army probe determined Thursday.

Ten-year-old Mahmoud Ghazal and his 12-year-old cousin, Yehiya Ghazal, died immediately. Their 10-year-old cousin Sara Ghazal was critically injured and died later.

The Israel Defense Forces said the children were killed after an army ground unit fired on Qassam launchers in the area.


This must be a 17 year old Palestinian
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62788000/jpg/_62788511_62788510.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19541416

Another 17 year old?
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/israeli-forces-killed-19-palestinian-children-in-gaza-in-2011/


I didn't say every Palestinian "child" was a 17 year old murderer. The ones you listed would fall into one of the other categories I gave (i.e. they are either fabricated cases, or they were bystanders accidentally killed as Israel was defending themselves).



parados wrote:
I think you will find more children have been killed by Israeli airstrikes than Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians.


Very unlikely.

And certainly not unless I counted fictitious deaths.



parados wrote:
I love your argument that Palestinian dead children don't exist but are just made up.


Well, it's the truth. The Palestinians concoct lie after lie about supposed dead children.



parados wrote:
It seems you want to just pretend things don't exist if they don't fit in your fractured world view.


No. No pretending is involved. All that is required is sticking to the facts.

What exactly is a "fractured world view"? Is that one where someone always sticks to the truth?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 09:29 am
@izzythepush,
That should be common knowledge by now.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 09:31 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The reality of the situation is the Palestinians refuse to make peace. They are only interested in murdering children.


That is the kind of propaganda that has always been used.


No, it is a simple recounting of facts.



parados wrote:
I guess we should not believe Israelis according to you.


Depends on the Israelis. I would not give a lot of credence to something said by a self-hating Jew.



parados wrote:
http://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
If Palestinians are targeting children why have the Israelis killed more children under the age of 17.


Because so many Palestinian "children" are murderers who need to be killed in self defense.



parados wrote:
Why do the number of fatalities by the Israelis include a HIGHER percentage of children killed than the Palestinians?


Because the chart pretends that Palestinian "children" killed in self defense as they try to murder someone, are the equivalent of Israeli children murdered while minding their own business.



parados wrote:
No matter how you read the statistics, you can't argue that Palestinians are targeting children and the Israelis aren't.


Oh yes I can.

Filter the cases into the following categories:

a) Killed in self defense while trying to murder someone.

b) Fictitious case.

c) Bystander killed accidentally during an act of self defense.

d) Intentionally murdered in cold blood.


Nearly every case that falls under "D" is a case of a Palestinian murdering an Israeli.

Categories "A" and "C" are unfortunate, but it's the Palestinians' own fault for trying to murder people.
 

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