politeness

@JTT,

Quote:

More prescriptive poppycock. I hope that you don't teach this nonsense to your students.

Not nonsense at all.
I can = I am able to
I may = I have permission to

@JTT,

Quote:

But my guess is that a corpus study, though I have nothing to back it, may well show 'lend' appearing more frequently in formal collocations than 'borrow'.

What fresh nonsense it this?

Lend and borrow are opposites, like give and take.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

I can = I am able to
I may = I have permission to

I may go to England in December. = ???I have permission to go to England in December???

It can rain there a lot in June. = ????"it/the weather" has the ability to rain there a lot in June????

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

What fresh nonsense it this?

Lend and borrow are opposites, like give and take.

What stale nonsense is this, McTag? You have to read all the posts. I explained to Merry that nothing I said with regard to a corpus study addressed, in any fashion whatsoever the meanings and uses of 'lend' and 'borrow'.

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@JTT,

Yes, I know all that. If you open a good big dictionary you will probably get half-a-page each on "can" and "may".

But Contrex is not wrong, and it is very naughty of you to suggest he is. "Can I go out" does not mean the same as "May I go out". Not in these parts anyway, not strictly speaking.

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@McTag,

"I can play the trombone and the cello. May I try your violin?"

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JTT says:

Quote:

I may go to England in December. = ???I have permission to go to England in December???

It can rain there a lot in June. = ????"it/the weather" has the ability to rain there a lot in June????

This is sheer sophistry, and you know it. Different uses of the words, with different meanings. You're being a language prat, again.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
It is quite common in British English, especially among older, more educated people.

It's ironic that these "more educated" people are so ignorant, C, but when it comes to how English works that's certainly been the case.

Quote:
When I started school, if you asked the teacher "Can I be excused?", she would say "You can, but you may not."

More prescriptive poppycock. I hope that you don't teach this nonsense to your students.

You are either deliberately being obtuse in order to get in a dig at me, or more likely your invincible ignorance and stupidity have caused you to misunderstand my little anecdote. Like Hitler seeing Jews behind Germany's woes, or Torquemada smelling heresy all about, you see evidence of the prescriptivist conspiracy lurking everywhere. I was describing a feature of a particular dialect of British English that school children of my generation were encouraged to adopt. I suppose I'd call it "genteel standard". It was a question of social class. Working class people said "can I" when they requested permission, and the middle classes said "may I". Substituting "may" for "can" was just one of those things that teachers made you do, along with replacing "ain't" with "isn't", and not saying "bloody".

1 Reply

Scene: a busy pub at lunchtime. I am the only one sitting at my table. There are two vacant chairs at this table as well. A man, a stranger to me, comes up, a pint in hand.

Stranger: "Can I sit here?"

Me: "Certainly. But if you do, I shall beat you to within an inch of your life."

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@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Scene: a busy pub at lunchtime. I am the only one sitting at my table. There are two vacant chairs at this table as well. A man, a stranger to me, comes up, a pint in hand.

Stranger: "Can I sit here?"

Me: Can you bend at the knees?

1 Reply

@roger,

Good one, Roger.

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@contrex,

Quote:

I was describing a feature of a particular dialect of British English that school children of my generation were encouraged to adopt.

There's nothing wrong with attempts to instill politeness in children. The only problem was the methods. This "educated" lot lied to your generation, just as other generations of "educated" have lied to their children.

It was the equivalent of telling those children that the Earth is flat.

Quote:

Substituting "may" for "can" was just one of those things that teachers made you do, along with replacing "ain't" with "isn't", and not saying "bloody".

That doesn't make them educated, C. That simply illustrates their deep ignorance of language.

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@McTag,

Quote:

But Contrex is not wrong, and it is very naughty of you to suggest he is.

You guys sure are having a difficult time with your reading comprehension, McTag. I allowed that Contrex wasn't offering this as his own personal ignorant opinion.

Now, I'm not sure.

I was assuming that these "educated" people that he was talking about had used the same bogus arguments to defend the nonsense about the meanings of 'may' and 'can', [an eminently fair assumption]. It is, in fact the very one that you have used - in complete defiance of reality, I might add.

Quote:

"Can I go out" does not mean the same as "May I go out". Not in these parts anyway, not strictly speaking.

You've contradicted yourself and blown your previous bogus argument right out of the water. That is, of course, if your 'strictly speaking" refers to learning and repeating a falsehood about language that all these "educated" folk have learned in school.

And now the facts. Here's an Google exact phrase search, limited to the UK. Notice the results. Strictly speaking, 'can' does mean permission in those situations where it is used deontically/socially to mean permission.

There isn't a sane person from the UK who doesn't realize that.

"may I borrow"
About 28,400 results

"can I borrow"
About 1,470,000 results

Another example

"may I use your"
About 124,000 results

"can I use your"
About 406,000 results

One of the hits on the last Google search is the BBC - Learning English. Note the section "Permission". Guess which modal verb of permission they don't even bother to mention. Go have a peek for yourself, you "educated" people.

Quote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/radio/specials/142_requests_offers/page2.shtml

Permission

In this programme, we look at language you can use when asking for permission to do something.

We listen to different ways of asking everyday requests in the work environment.

When you've listened to the programme, don't forget to practise what you've learned with the quizzes below!

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@MontereyJack,

Quote:

This is sheer sophistry, and you know it. Different uses of the words, with different meanings.

It's sophistry on my part, MJ, but not sophistry on McTag's? I'm not the one who is suggesting that the meaning of 'can' is limited to 'ability'.

Okay, you can give your explanation now.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Another of your typical fantastic posts on the language issue, Merry.

What's so amazing is that you have no sense of shame at all. You just keep marching out your ignorance for all to see.

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Don't be simplistic, JTT. He was talking specifically about the "May I...", "Can I..." pair which is what we have been debating here for the last several days. He nowhere said that was the ONLY meaning of "can". Jeez, get with the program. Stop making unwarranted assumptions.

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

Quote:

Don't be simplistic, JTT. He was talking specifically about the "May I...", "Can I..." pair which is what we have been debating here for the last several days. He nowhere said that was the ONLY meaning of "can". Jeez, get with the program. Stop making unwarranted assumptions.

You've made the same unwarranted assumption, MJ. Get with what program, the idiotic prescriptive program. You ought to get up to speed on these things before you shoot your mouth off. By telling students that 'can' only had the meaning of 'ability' these educated folk leave the impression that 'can' has no other meaning - in complete defiance of reality.

'can', like every other modal has epistemic and deontic meanings [look them up, it'll be part of your getting up to speed]. Epistemic are primary and from those meanings, the deontic meanings flow.

The whole prescription is such nonsense. There's no complaints about all the other modal forms used to supplant 'may' for permission. For these folks it's simply closing their minds to common sense because they memorized a silly little notion, one they believe makes them a language guru.

You've taken this stance only because you were corrected for another silly notion you advance in another thread. Instead of addressing what you know to be the truth, you go off on this inane tangent. Honesty doesn't mean a whole lot to you it seems.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

By telling students that 'can' only had the meaning of 'ability'

I don't believe anyone here has done that. But by saying "you can, but you may not" to a student the teacher is opening their mind to the possibility of a better word, or a good alternative. A less ambiguous word.

People here deplore the neologism, heard nowadays in cafes etc, and usually from the young, of "Can I get...." instead of "May I have....". It dumbs down the language, and makes it more blunt and ugly.

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Why doesn't anybody just come right out and say that JTT is a nutty prick? Are you all scared of him?

1 Reply

JTT is a nutty prick. Happy now, Contrex?

1 Reply

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