Mel Gibsons (The Passion)

historically.... It seems, there is no prof there was a God or a Jesus... historically... It seems, if there was a God or a Jesus... No one knew about either of them. To me, that leaves every one... Just guessing.

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anton bonnier wrote:

historically.... It seems, there is no prof there was a God or a Jesus... historically... It seems, if there was a God or a Jesus... No one knew about either of them. To me, that leaves every one... Just guessing.

Anton,
Try reading some history that isn't in your "from the beginning of American civilization" history books. It is called "HIS- STORY!" history!!!

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Anton
It must be true, the bible told me so. Rolling Eyes

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Mel Gibson's interpretation of the passion is obviously influencing a ridiculous amount of people into thinking that what he portrayed in his film actually happened rather than people seeing it as Mel Gibson's interpretation of the passion. Is it possible that the stories written in the New Testament such as Jesus's ability to walk on water, heal, and turn water to wine are overblown exaggerations similar to Mel Gibson's? That's what I left the theater thinking. Instead of feeling closer to Christ or rethinking my faith I left questioning whether or not Jesus was actually The Son of God. Could it be possible that he was just an extremely intelligent, pious, and loving man?

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lolli wrote:

. . . and micah, I'm sorry! You can talk, even try to reason. They don't want to hear the truth in any form. If they truly wanted to learn the truth, they would be looking for it in the right place, not on an forum called "Spirituality."

I know the truth -- and the truth is that I do not know the answers to the questions to which you are pretending you know answers.

Why don't you try dealing with the TRUTH before giving lectures on the matter?

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Frank, why must your truth be a universal truth? Simply because YOU do not know the answers to YOUR questions does not mean that Lolli does not either. Maybe Lolli's questions are different than your questions and Lolli DOES know the answers.

You are getting very missionary like in your agnosticism.

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McGentrix wrote:

Frank, why must your truth be a universal truth? Simply because YOU do not know the answers to YOUR questions does not mean that Lolli does not either. Maybe Lolli's questions are different than your questions and Lolli DOES know the answers.

You are getting very missionary like in your agnosticism.

McGentirx - g-d is immaterial. That means he cannot be detected by the senses or by instruments. If he/she/it does exist, we have no physical evidence of it (as a g-d.) We also can have no physical evidence of somthing not existing if it is not physical.

In order for there to be evidence - there needs to be either 1. physical impact on the earth or 2. a clear lack of physical impact on the earth.

We don't have either. That is why there is no evidence - not because of books, or feelings, or arguments - but because of hard, physical evidence.

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belief does not require evidence.

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McGentrix
Faith not belief. That is religions byword and selling point. Ya gota have faith since proof does not exist.

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So is it wrong to have faith or beliefs? Or is it just wrong when others beliefs/faiths don't agree with your own?

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McGentrix wrote:

Frank, why must your truth be a universal truth?
Simply because YOU do not know the answers to YOUR questions does not mean that Lolli does not either. Maybe Lolli's questions are different than your questions and Lolli DOES know the answers.

Oh, gimme a goddam break, McG.

Lolli is dealing with the same questions all of us are dealing with.

Here are a few questions:

1) Is there a God -- or are there no gods?

2) If there is a God -- does that God have expectations of humans -- and if so, what are those expectations?

3) If there is a God -- what pleases that God and what offends that God?

Do you KNOW the answer to any of those questions?

I don't!

It is my GUESS that you don't either.

And it is my GUESS that Lolli doesn't either.

Quote:

You are getting very missionary like in your agnosticism.

Really!

Well, I'd love to see more people come to their senses and adopt agnosticism as their philosophical stance -- so perhaps my enthusiasm for the agnostic take -- (the answers to those kinds of questions seem to be unKNOWABLE at the moment) -- can be mistaken for missionary zeal.

It ain't.

But I am not even going to try to convince you about that, because you've got a bug up your ass about me right now and apparently you are going to try to lecture me at every opportunity.

Don't stop.

It is amusing me.

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Nope. I don't know the answers either. The difference is that I am not insulting others beliefs or trying to forward my own.

You are.

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Mc
Faith is good as long as it is not used as a weapon.

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McGentrix wrote:

belief does not require evidence.

It does if you insist it is truth (which most people who hold beliefs do.) If you bring things up for argument - you must have evidence to qualify what you say - or there is no way to discuss. Evidence doesn't necessarily have to be or a physical nature - but being that we live in a physical world it certainly helps.

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Are you going to tell that Pope that his beliefs are wrong because he can't prove them?

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Guys, guys, guys,
I agree, this doesn't have to be a drawn out, knock down battle. I am not posting these things to shove my beliefs down your throat, Frank.
I understand the appeal of atheism. It makes sense.

Frank,
In my life, I have asked those questions. I have recieved the answers.
It is impossible to believe in God without faith. I have recieved my faith through hearing. You're not going to like this, but it was from the Bible.
I have struggled with doubt at times, but I know that my faith is not based on emotions. I do know! I wish you could too!

Portal Star,
I'm not quite sure where you stand. With Frank? I was just wondering your personal views!

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McGentrix wrote:

Are you going to tell that Pope that his beliefs are wrong because he can't prove them?

Of course! (Of course, he's pretty old and I might get shot, but on a purely exemplar level, yes.) I think people should hold and discuss more beliefs. That is how we learn.

You should understand this - being a teacher.

Lolli - with Frank - I don't think he'll win his arguments by calling other's "crap." Although he is not condemning anyone to hell or scientific purgatory it is not a polite word. However, I agree with most of his views (I am an agnostic.) I believe in tolerance - for everyone, from everyone. But the forums are a place to put our views to the test, to exchange them with other minds - bounce them off the wall a bit.
So, there is nothing wrong with arguing - er, debating. It is good for your mind, and it is good for the minds of others (if they listen.)

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Portal Star,
Cool! I like the way you think about discussing these things.
I'll learn a lot from all of you.
My goal is not to win anyone over to my side!
That has to be a choice made by the individual.
I've never known anyone to be won over in a debate.
I just enjoy exchanging views, however rabid it may get.

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lolli wrote:

Portal Star,
Cool! I like the way you think about discussing these things.
I'll learn a lot from all of you.
My goal is not to win anyone over to my side!
That has to be a choice made by the individual.
I've never known anyone to be won over in a debate.
I just enjoy exchanging views, however rabid it may get.

OOh, I feel the same way. thanks! And I sincerely hope that even though we disagree, I don't offend you. I see nothing wrong with your beliefs (you seem tolerant and understanding.) Even if I don't agree with them. Maybe we can learn from each other. Winning a debate is fun, but it's also a little sad because you can't argue or get new ideas from someone you agree with
Laughing

.

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McGentrix wrote:

Nope. I don't know the answers either. The difference is that I am not insulting others beliefs or trying to forward my own.

If you would open your mind, McG, you would realize how hilarious it is for you to be giving pointers on being reasonable and respectful.

In any case, since you pretend to be an agnostic, how could you be trying to "forward" your own beliefs???

You shouldn't have any.

Quote:

You are.

No I'm not. I am using an Internet forum to discuss my perspective -- and to challenge other perspectives.

But like I said, you've got a bug up your ass about me -- and haven't been able to put together a reasonable thought in weeks.

Instead of discussing me -- discuss the subject of this thread.

(Although I am really enjoying your adoration!)

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Mel Gibsons (The Passion)

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