40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:01 pm
@Tuna,
If you read what I wrote carefully, my doubt is about whether or not the being of a person matches the conventional understandings/concepts applied to it. It's not doubting that there is a central locus of experience; it's the qualities conventionally attributed to that being that don't quite match.

I don't see how any of this is related to one's confidence in science. Would you explain what you see to be the difficulty? I've presented a lot of work done by neuroscientists that suggest (but fall short of proving) this or that. I presented that as something relevant to consider vis a vis other claims that the will or the mind that wills is a non-physical entity, or that it functions independently of the flesh, ie that the executive function(s) are done without need for a brain.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:15 pm
@layman,
Sounds counter intuitive. Any link?
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:17 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
I presented that as something relevant to consider vis a vis other claims that the will or the mind that wills is a non-physical entity, or that it functions independently of the flesh, ie that the executive function(s) are done without need for a brain.

That's a strawman. Nobody ever said anything like that here.
0 Replies
 
annaluv
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:25 pm
@MoralPhilosopher23,
if there are any Christians on here could you pm me.......i need answers about God
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Still waiting for that Frege argument, Tuna... Smile
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:54 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Sounds counter intuitive. Any link?


Yeah, I got a link, Ollie. You're right that it is "counter-intuitive." He did in fact *publicly* support women's rights, so I got that part wrong. But I knew he had a reputation as a male chauvinist, somehow.

His own daughter said that his public stance was hypocritical insofar as it did not reflect his private attitudes about women. She said he was a chauvinistic male in his personal life.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1870&dat=19781001&id=44ofAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5dIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5284,732373&hl=en
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 01:44 am
@annaluv,
MoralPhilosopher has been off the board for about 3 years or so and not likely to respond.

As for Christians: Precious few have been able to weather the storm and scorn of a2k denizens. But it's not a bad gig, really. Stay around and read a few threads. You will soon begin to find answers.

I enjoy it here in spite of my many down thumbs.
0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 02:12 am
@layman,
There is free will only in that consciousness can be used in a local or nonlocal way. Consciousness used for local ends by a brain is conspiracy away from the order of god or bad relativity.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 06:06 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

He did in fact *publicly* support women's rights, so I got that part wrong. But I knew he had a reputation as a male chauvinist, somehow.

His own daughter said that his public stance was hypocritical insofar as it did not reflect his private attitudes about women. She said he was a chauvinistic male in his personal life.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1870&dat=19781001&id=44ofAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5dIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5284,732373&hl=en

It's not fair to judge people against anachronic standards. Russel was a man of his times.

My only beef with him is with his lack of common sense. Him getting enamored with Wittgenstein for instance shows poor judgment. Getting bogged down by something as simple as his 'paradox' shows a lack of "street smarts".
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 06:30 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Still waiting for that Frege argument, Tuna... Smile

I googled and read a lor of minute, mind-numbing trivialities about preposituonal logic... but didn't find any argunent by Frege saying truth cannot be defined. Tuna must have confused him with some other hair-splitting 'analytic philosopher'.


The common sense definition of truth as a good fit between thoughts and reality thus stands. IOW, truth can be defined as a good enough isomorphism between the structure of reality and a symbolic representation of it. This definition implies that there is objective information in the world (patterns, shapes, structure).

I welcome any alternative definition... From Frege or anyone else.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 06:35 am
@FBM,
Oh, I misunderstood you then. You accept that the I exists, but doubt that we have a clear understanding of its nature. I fully agree with that.

I would say that reigning in assumptions and paying attention to the work of neuroscience (which has been pretty exciting for the last decade or so) is the healthiest attitude.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 06:37 am
@Olivier5,
An excellent source is Scott Soames' Understanding Truth.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 09:45 am
@Tuna,
What's his thesis?
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 10:21 am
@Olivier5,
I could write out Frege's argument, but what's in it for me?

Tell you what: if you start a thread entitled "Representative Realism" and explain in the OP in concise words of your own the well-known strengths of and challenges to representative realism, I'll write out Frege's argument for you.

Feel free to use this reference: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-episprob/

But note that if you get it wrong, I won't write it.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:29 am
@Tuna,
I'm fine with the traditional view of truth as a correct representation of reality. I don't see a need to discuss it, if you don't.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 02:18 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I'm fine with the traditional view of truth as a correct representation of reality
.

Exactly, Ollie. As Dennet joked: We KNOW it works it practice. What we're trying to figure out is if it works in theory.

Theorize on, theorists. Me, I'm goin with the reliabilist solution to all them angel on pinhead "debates."

Quote:
On such a reliabilist view, the justification of a perceptual belief depends only on the reliability of the perceptual process that produces it, that is, on the fact (assuming that it is a fact) that this process leads to a suitably high proportion of true beliefs. (Note that it is not required that the believer or anyone else know that the process is reliable or have any sort of cognitive access to its reliability — all that is required is that it is in fact reliable).

The justification of such a belief thus requires no appeal to sensory experience at all, thus effectively short-circuiting the issue that divides representationalism and phenomenalism. Such reliabilist views might in a way be viewed as versions of direct realism, but it is less misleading to simply regard them as rejecting the issue which all three of the more traditional theories attempt to respond to: the issue of how sensory experience provides a reason for thinking that perceptual beliefs are true. Reliabilism thus offers a seemingly straightforward and unproblematic account of how perceptual beliefs about physical objects and the physical world are, in a specified sense, justified.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-episprob/

layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 04:27 pm
@layman,
I see an apple. [how can I know it's really an apple? How can I know it even exists? How do you define "apple?" Could it be true that.....]

I think to myself: "Imma grab that sukka and chomp it down.". [Who is "I", here? Who is "myself" How can a "mind" have any effect on material objects. Who's doing the "thinking" here? How....]

I get my mitts on it and hog it right down. Tasted good! [how do you KNOW you did that? Where does "taste" reside, exactly? What if...]

That **** in brackets can kiss my black ass. Like I done said: Tasted good. Imma go find me another one.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 05:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I'm fine with the traditional view of truth as a correct representation of reality. I don't see a need to discuss it, if you don't.

I'm fine with the mainstream deflationary view. If someone really wanted to understand why it's the mainstream view, I'd discuss it. It doesn't look to me like you're in that category, so I'm fine with letting it lay.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 07:07 pm
@layman,
Excellent summary. And you know what? Those professional hair-splitters who ask your bracketed questions, they eat apples too...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Nov, 2015 07:16 pm
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:

I'm fine with the mainstream deflationary view. If someone really wanted to understand why it's the mainstream view, I'd discuss it. It doesn't look to me like you're in that category, so I'm fine with letting it lay.

I don't care about the "mainstream". You're right about that. I swim in my own streams, away from today's academic clichés.

Befote we started this tangent, my point was simply that there is information in the world. The world has form. Matter assumes form. Life assumes forms. And that's the SCIENTIFIC mainstream.
0 Replies
 
 

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