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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 05:14 am
@Briancrc,

Quote:
But why wouldn't consciousness matter in the discussion of free will?


Consciousness does matter. Consciousness that is labelled as "unconscious" is still consciousness, of some kind. It is the distinction between the two that is ultimately irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 05:16 am
@Briancrc,
I'm not talking about "labels."

Quote:
Upon the eyes orienting at the object, a wavelength of light reaches your eye.


Does that mean the ball is red?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 05:26 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
With something coming in front of your vehicle, turning to avoid it has been built up through your experiential history

Still, people do think in those cases; they review their options in a split second: Turn left, turn right, or just brake? Just like when playing ping pong, super-fast sophisticatef decisions are made all the time and You can't say the choices were taken before hand since there's no befote: You got to evaluate the speed, direction and spin if the ball before you decide how to hit it back.

As for conscious vs unconscious in relation to free will, i suppose ut dépends how you define free will...
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 06:23 am
@layman,
Quote:
does that mean the ball is red?


You can see how we can not even have the discussion without the label. The properties of the object are whatever they are. However, a verbal community teaches us how to talk about these objects.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 06:26 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
You can see how we can not even have the discussion without the label. The properties of the object are whatever they are. However, a verbal community teaches us how to talk about these objects
.

The label is irrelevant. Can't you see that I'm not talking about the label?

Let's say we suddenly decided to call what we used to call red, green.

OK, that wouldn't change my question to you at all. My question be the same: Is the ball green?

Call "green" dogshit. Then is the ball dogshit?

Give it any one of a million labels. It won't change the question.

I'm talking about the ball itself, not the label we append to it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 08:15 am
@layman,
Quote:
Quote:
If our subconscious self was running the show, forcing us to do stuff which we recognise as conscious choices only post factum, don't you think there would be many more accidents?

I'm not sure about this, Ollie. In fact I think it would be the other way around

People who are absent-minded are more likely to have car accidents, me think. When you drive, you are supposed to be conscious and focused.

Imagine what would happen if the willusionists were right. Our actions would all be the mechanical result of long-past events and other determinants, rather than what's happening here and now. People would be unable to deal with the unexpected, with anything novel. There would be many more accidents, and not just with cars but with planes, boats, etc.

If there's no pilot in the mind of the plane pilot... then there's no pilot in the plane either!
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 09:35 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
People who are absent-minded are more likely to have car accidents, me think
.

That's probably true, but I still think that "you" (which includes your subconscious mind, the way I'm using it) will immediately hit the brakes if you see an obstacle directly in your path without even "deciding" to do it. Just like you don't "decide" to make every movement of your fingers once you become accomplished at playing piano--you do it "instinctively" after practice and training. That's the only reason why you can read sheet music and play the right notes, all while maintaining the required tempo. Otherwise, you would have hesitation and delay before each note, just as you did when learning to play in the first place.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 10:15 am
@layman,
I would hit the brake but it would be a conscious move, in the sense of "not unconscious". The decision will be very fast and taken without thinking much, but it would still be conscious. I would feel surprise, fear, etc. even before I hit the brake. Not sure we are using these words (conscious, unconscious) the same way.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 11:03 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I would hit the brake but it would be a conscious move, in the sense of "not unconscious".


OK, Ollie, fair enough. Perhaps you and I have a different view of what "subconscious" is. That's cool. I don't want to quibble (with you or anyone else) about that. It's not even important to this topic
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 11:52 am
@layman,
Indeed it's unclear how consciousness is linked to free will or not. Maybe Brian will reply to my query about that. Perhaps it's linked for those people who don't identify with their subconscious...? They consider that their self= their conscious self?
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 04:53 pm
@layman,
Quote:
The label is irrelevant


The label is certainly arbitrary. That's why there are different words in different languages for a given stimulus. But I thought I answered your question in the previous post. I said the properties of the stimulus are what they are. Our labels do not change the properties of the stimuli we discuss, but I would point out that those properties come to control our responses in their presence because of what we have been taught.

If you are asked, "Which candy do you want? The red one or the blue one <hehe>?" Your saying "the red one" was the result of the verbal community teaching you to say "red" in the presence of objects with that approximate wavelength of light, and will result in the person with the candy handing over the red candy instead of the blue one for similar reasons.

If you are looking at this issue differently, then maybe you could state what your driving at.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 05:06 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
I said the properties of the stimulus are what they are. If you are looking at this issue differently, then maybe you could state what your driving at
.

OK. That's not what I'm driving at. Centuries ago John Locke made a distinction between the "primary" and the "secondary" qualities of an object. This was a distinction that Kant later rejected. I am trying to find out (1) if you understand and acknowledge the distinction, and (2) if you agree that there is a valid distinction.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 06:32 pm
@layman,
ok...I'm not familiar with that. What do you see as the importance?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 06:40 pm
@Briancrc,
There is, in the opinion of many, an important distinction to be made between what is "out there" and how/what we perceive to be "out there." Skinner, of course, tries to deny that anything other than what is "out there" is of any significance. Your philosophical approach to this topic seems to parallel his philosophy on the topic.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 07:36 pm
@layman,
OK, what is the important distinction? I'm not even sure yet what is supposedly being denied.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 07:51 pm
@Briancrc,
For a (very) basic explanation, you could start here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary/secondary_quality_distinction

This also includes the (later) views of Berkeley and Kant on the matter.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2015 07:51 pm
http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/block/papers/BerlinTreatment.pdf

The Neural Basis of the Dynamic Unconscious
Heather A. Berlin (New York)


A great deal of complex cognitive processing occurs at the unconscious level and affects how humans behave, think, and feel. Scientists
are only now beginning to understand how this occurs on the neural level. Understanding the neural basis of consciousness
requires an account of the neural mechanisms that underlie both conscious and unconscious thought, and their dynamic interaction.
For example, how do conscious impulses, thoughts, or desires become unconscious (e.g., repression) or, conversely, how do
unconscious impulses, desires, or motives become conscious (e.g., Freudian slips)? Research taking advantage of advances in
technologies, like functional magnetic resonance imaging, has led to a revival and re-conceptualization of some of the key concepts
of psychoanalytic theory, but steps toward understanding their neural basis have only just commenced. According to psychoanalytic
theory, unconscious dynamic processes defensively remove anxiety-provoking thoughts and impulses from consciousness in response
to one’s conflicting attitudes. The processes that keep unwanted thoughts from entering consciousness include repression,
suppression, and dissociation. In this literature review, studies from psychology and cognitive neuroscience in both healthy and
patient populations that are beginning to elucidate the neural basis of these phenomena are discussed and organized within a conceptual
framework. Further studies in this emerging field at the intersection of psychoanalytic theory and neuroscience are needed.

Keywords: unconscious; psychodynamic; repression; suppression; dissociation; neural

Heather A. Berlin: Department of Psychiatry, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, U.S.A.


Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself.”
Ludwig Wittgenstein [1889–1951]
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2015 12:23 am
@FBM,
"I never found a platitude I could resist telling."
Ludwig Wittgenstein [1889–1951]
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2015 04:14 am
@layman,
Quote:
This also includes the (later) views of Berkeley and Kant on the matter.


Okay, that helps with understanding that properties of stimuli have been arbitrarily classified, but I don't see how it says much, if anything, about the directionality of stimulus-organism interaction.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2015 04:25 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
why do they want to?


http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1985/11/27/personal-responsibility-or-pbibn-a-puff/
0 Replies
 
 

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