40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 12:56 am

Free Will Is Not an Illusion
By William R. Klemm Ph.D., October 25, 2010

Many scientists and philosophers think that free-will is an illusion. That is, intentions, choices, and decisions are made by subconscious mind, which only lets the conscious mind know what was willed after the fact. This argument was promoted long ago by scholars like Darwin, Huxley, and Einstein. Many modern scholars also hold that position and neuroscientists have even performed experiments since the 80s to prove it.

These experiments supposedly show that the brain makes a subconscious decision before it is realized consciously. In the typical experiment supporting illusory free will, a subject is asked to voluntarily press a button at any time and notice the position of a clock marker when they think they first willed the movement. At the same time, brain activity is monitored over the part of the brain that controls the mechanics of the movement. The startling typical observation is that subjects show brain activity changes before they say they intended to make the movement. In other words the brain supposedly issued the command before the conscious mind had a chance to decide to move. All this happens in less than a second, but various scientists have interpreted this to mean that the subconscious mind made the decision to move and the conscious mind only realized the decision later.

In a paper in the current issue of Advances in Cognitive Psychology (Vol. 6, page 47-65), I challenge the whole series of experiments performed since the 1980s pur-ported to show that intentions, choices, and decisions are made subconsciously, with conscious mind being informed after the fact. These experiments do not test what they are intended to test and are misinterpreted to support the view of illusory free will.

My criticisms focus on three main points: 1) timing of when a free-will event occurred requires introspection, and other research shows that introspective estimates of event timing are not accurate, 2) simple finger movements may be performed without much conscious thought and certainly not representative of the conscious decisions and choices required in high-speed conversation or situations where the subconscious mind cannot know ahead of time what to do, and 3) the brain activity measures have been primitive and incomplete.

I point out 12 categories of what I regard as flawed thinking about free will. Some of the more obvious issues that many scientists have glossed over include:

• Decisions are not often instantaneous (certainly not on a scale of a fraction of a second).

• Conscious realization that a decision has been made is delayed from the actual decision, and these are two distinct processes.

• Decision making is not the only mental process going on in such tasks.

• Some willed action, as when first learning to play a musical instrument or touch type must be freely willed because the subconscious mind cannot know ahead of time what to do.

• Free-will experiments have relied too much on awareness of actions and time estimation of accuracy.

• Extrapolating from such simple experiments to all mental life is not justified.

• Conflicting data and interpretations have been ignored.

A basic problem is that scientists do not yet have a good independent brain-function measure of the conscious generation of intentions, choices, or decisions. Without such a measure, it is not possible to measure the time at which a willed action occurs.

My paper concludes with a series of suggestions that scientists can use to test free-will issues. Equally important, the research I suggest would not only help identify reliable markers of conscious decision-making but would also help scientists learn what the brain does to achieve consciousness in the first place.

In the real world, subconscious and conscious minds interact and share duties. Subconscious mind governs simple or well-learned tasks, like habits or ingrained prejudices, while conscious mind deals with tasks that are complex or novel, like first learning to ride a bike or play sheet music. Most deliberate new learning has to be mediated by free will, because subconscious mind has not yet had a chance to learn.
[•••]
http://brainblogger.com/2010/10/25/free-will-is-not-an-illusion/

Reference

Klemm, W. (2010). Free will debates: Simple experiments are not so simple Advances in Cognitive Psychology, 6 (-1), 47-65
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 01:11 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Says Moliere's Tartuffe:
Quote:
"Some joys, it's true, are wrong in Heaven's eyes;
Yet Heaven's not averse to compromise;
There is a science, lately formulated,
Whereby one's conscience may be liberated,
And any wrongful act you care to mention
May be redeemed by purity of intention." (4.5.13)
Besides, we have no choice in the matter.

Beware that Tartuffe is a liar and manipulator.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 07:20 am
Here goes a post against words with an original form for an answer...
How do I feel upon the subject with music instead of talking:

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 07:38 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
In the real world, subconscious and conscious minds interact and share duties. Subconscious mind governs simple or well-learned tasks, like habits or ingrained prejudices, while conscious mind deals with tasks that are complex or novel, like first learning to ride a bike or play sheet music.


Driving a car is another familiar example of this. Once you learn, you no longer has to "decide" to hit the brakes if you're approaching something too fast; you don't have to focus or "concentrate" on keeping your car in your own lane, etc. You can do that while reading a book.

Quote:
Most deliberate new learning has to be mediated by free will, because subconscious mind has not yet had a chance to learn.


You don't have to call your doctor to put on a Band-Aid. You can easily do that yourself, and he has more important matters to attend to. He doesn't even know you've done it unless you tell him later. Just shows he's not very good at his job, which is to attend to your health concerns 24/7, I figure.

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 09:41 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Beware that Tartuffe is a liar and manipulator.
Ah, yes.
But a more delightfully insightful one would be hard to find.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 10:14 am
@neologist,
Quote:
But a more delightfully insightful one would be hard to find.


True dat, Neo! Tartuffe, he ROCKS!
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 02:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
In a paper in the current issue of Advances in Cognitive Psychology (Vol. 6, page 47-65), I challenge the whole series of experiments performed since the 1980s pur-ported to show that intentions, choices, and decisions are made subconsciously, with conscious mind being informed after the fact. These experiments do not test what they are intended to test and are misinterpreted to support the view of illusory free will.


How in the living hell could this kinda tripe get published in a peer-reviewed journal, I ask ya?!

Bribery, maybe?
layman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 02:31 pm
@layman,
Among other things, this fool says:

Quote:
Though the neuroscientific findings are somewhat unsettling, they appear to fit nicely with the general scientific worldview whose primary aim is to break down an object of inquiry into reductive parts within a deterministic system of causal mechanisms


http://modernpsychologist.ca/free-will-as-illusion-its-your-choice/

How in the hell could "worldview" have ANYTHING to do with DATA?

When are these damn denialists gunna be taken out and summarily shot? They're trying to ruin society.

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 02:43 pm
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-unconscious-mechanisms/

Quote:
How Unconscious Mechanisms Affect Thought
Clever experiments root out nooks and crannies in the brain that are hidden from your conscious awareness
By Christof Koch | Oct 1, 2008

...
Unconscious Influences
As I write these lines, I am flying back from the annual meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness that took place, this year, in Taipei, Taiwan. It’s a gathering of hard-nosed philosophers, neurologists, psychologists and neuroscientists concerned with consciousness. One of its high points is an annual award, named in honor of the father of American psychology. The 2008 William James Prize for Contributions to the Study of Consciousness went to Nao­tsugu Tsuchiya, a young neurobiologist from the California Institute of Technology. What had he done that caught the attention of the prize committee?

In 2005 Tsuchiya invented a technique, continuous flash suppression, which renders a picture invisible, hiding it from your conscious sight. Yet some part of your brain has access to the image and influences your behavior in untold ways. The way it works is simple. Say Tsuchiya wants to camouflage a picture of an angry male face. With the help of a split computer screen, Tsuchiya projects a faint image of this snarling guy into your left eye. Your right eye sees a rapidly changing set of colored rectangles, one on top of another. If you keep both eyes open, all you see are the ever changing series of colored patches but no angry face. The constantly flickering colors attract your attention in a way that the static portrait does not. As soon as you close your right eye, the face becomes visible. But otherwise you have no inkling that the face is there, even though your left eye has been staring at it for many minutes. You simply do not see it. So what is the big deal?

Subconsciously Active
Functional brain imaging shows that this angry face still activates a part of your brain that is concerned with fear, the amygdala. That is, at least some sector of your brain knows about the face—as it ought to because an angry male face in front of you might spell big trouble. This brain activity remains unconscious but may influence your behavior or generate a subtle feeling of unease.

Using this technique, psychologist Sheng He, with his student Yi Jiang and their colleagues at the University of Minnesota, made an intriguing discovery. They projected to one eye a photograph of a naked person on one side of the gaze and a scrambled version of the same image on the other side. They then hid both using continuous flash suppression. The paid volunteers who participated in the experiment never saw anything but flashes of color. The psychologists asked the volunteers to guess whether the naked person was in the left or the right part of the image. But they couldn’t. Their guesses were no better than chance.

He and Jiang demonstrated that the observers attended to the naked picture but not to its scrambled counterpart. Even more interesting, straight males attended to pictures of naked women but were slightly repelled by pictures of naked men. Straight women were attracted to pictures of naked men without showing a consistent repulsion for pictures of naked women. Gay men behaved much like straight women; they unconsciously paid attention to the pictures of the naked men but not to those of women. What is disconcerting about this experiment is that this all took place outside the pale of consciousness. Because the observers never actually saw the naked images, they had no idea they were attracted or repelled by them. This experiment is scary because it seems as if people’s sexual orientation could be inferred (statistically) from their unconscious attentional biases. An example of the unconscious mind at work. Freud would have loved it.
layman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 02:56 pm
@FBM,
More DATA, eh!?
Quote:

He and Jiang demonstrated that the observers attended to the naked picture but not to its scrambled counterpart. Even more interesting, straight males attended to pictures of naked women but were slightly repelled by pictures of naked men. Straight women were attracted to pictures of naked men without showing a consistent repulsion for pictures of naked women
.

How, exactly did they "demonstrate" that anything was "attended to" in light of this:

Quote:
The paid volunteers who participated in the experiment never saw anything but flashes of color
.

I wonder what any of this has to do with "free will?"
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 08:54 pm
I finally found free will!

I went to see a homey of mine who became a lawyer. I asked him to help me make sure that my collection of blues records went to my nephew when I died, instead of any one of those 37 deadbeat children of mine.

He drew up what he called a "will." When I asked him what I owed him, he said "No charge, Layman."
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 04:56 am
So how is the research going? Has any one managed to will himself out of free will yet?
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 05:56 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
...consciousness does not provide us with transparent and infallible knowledge of our own minds. We may consciously think we are doing something because of reason X, when in reality we are doing it because of reason Y.

What does this mean for the introspective argument for free will?
I believe it shows that we cannot rely on our conscious experience alone
to determine what the true causes of our actions are. We are often unaware of important causal determinates. The fact that we do not feel causally determined, or that we are not consciously aware of the various (internal and external) influences on our behavior, does not mean such determinates do not exist. Worse still, if consciousness can confabulate and/or misrepresent the causes for our choices and/or actions, then to rely on such conscious data to infer our own freedom would be a mistake. Whatever persuasiveness the introspective argument originally had depended on the assumption that we had direct, infallible access to our own decision-making process. The argument assumes that consciousness reveals everything about our mental functioning, or at least everything relevant to the issue at hand. If what I’ve argued here is correct, this is not the case. What we are conscious of—and hence, what we can report on—is not always in line with what is otherwise going on mentally. If it turns out, as recent research suggests, that a great deal of mental activity is controlled by unconscious mental states, and that we can also misrepresent and confabulate the states we are in, the libertarian argument from introspection loses all its force.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://philpapers.org/archive/CARCAF&ved=0CCAQFjACOEZqFQoTCPXOkIqQ78gCFchDJgodzFMEfw&usg=AFQjCNFjOQKWiiNm7V8-RY-Enw-EGmAZ0Q&sig2=exN30W6cgjgf6TR9rnmSBQ
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 08:18 am
Bronco humour for replies...yep it makes sense.. it goes right along with the thread tone...
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 09:21 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Whatever persuasiveness the introspective argument originally had depended on the assumption that we had direct, infallible access to our own decision-making process. The argument assumes that consciousness reveals everything about our mental functioning, or at least everything relevant to the issue at hand.


This is totally inaccurate and another typical display of fallacious "all-or-nothing" reasoning.

Consciousness does NOT have to be infallible in order to be reliable or to provide relevant information. It does not have to, and has NEVER been claimed to have, "reveal everything about our mental functioning."

A total strawman argument, but no doubt quite persuasive to those who have already decided that free will doesn't exist.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 09:44 am
@layman,
Quote:
Consciousness does NOT have to be infallible in order to be reliable or to provide relevant information


I wouldn't call "at least everything relevant to the issue at hand" "all-or-nothing," but also, evidence of confabulation does call into question reliability.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 09:46 am
@Briancrc,
Not sure why the previous link didn't work. For some reason, this one also doesn't go directly to the pdf.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jD4yN1ZAgSYC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=We+are+often+unaware+of+important+causal+determinates.+The+fact+that+we+do+not+feel+causally+determined,+or+that+we+are+not+consciously+aware+of+the+various+(internal+and+external)+influences+on+our+behavior,+does+not+mean+such+determinates+do+not+exist.+Worse+still,+if+consciousness+can+confabulate+and/or+misrepresent+the+causes+for+our+choices+and/or+actions,+then+to+rely+on+such+conscious+data+to+infer+our+own+freedom+would+be+a+mistake.&source=bl&ots=JVEspgKbga&sig=pJiQVazRJV0S5Q0vpjairKIgSrs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMIxbrX48jvyAIVAgo-Ch1BhgKC

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZBPwpPxz3XUJ:www.academia.edu/219143/Consciousness_and_Free_Will_A_Critique_of_the_Argument_From_Introspection+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 09:49 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
evidence of confabulation does call into question reliability.


Sure it does. Just as the "reliability" of the conclusions of many neuroscientists can easily be "called into question?" But "questioning" is not tantamount to refutation.

If I correctly answer 98 out of 100 questions on a multiple choice test, the "reliability" of my answers is now suspect. I was wrong. TWICE, in fact!

The only possible conclusion? My answers are ALWAYS wrong.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 10:30 am
@layman,
It is an incorrect statement to say that the answers are always wrong. The fact was that they were not always wrong. How reliable the answers are is still a question. 98% reliability is very reliable. How reliable are we at identifying our mental states? How reliable are we at connecting our thoughts and actions to those mental states? There is evidence that there is some level of confabulation? How much is there? What evidence is there that would lead one to so confidently assume that these are highly reliable phenomena?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2015 10:37 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
What evidence is there that would lead one to so confidently assume that these are highly reliable phenomena?


What evidence is there to assume that they are not? But that's not even the point. The point was that consciousness doesn't have to be "infallible" as your author claimed. Other papers have been posted here which persuasively argue that the role of "consciousness" may well be a "specialized" one, dealing only with tasks which require it.

Likewise, being "unaware" (consciously) of certain movements (such as finger movements when playing piano in a highly skilled manner), does not mean that they "originated" with something mysterious and unknown called the "subconscious."

The whole debate about what is conscious and what is subconscious is a red herring, which, in itself, says virtually nothing about the possibility of free will.
 

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