40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:02 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
I have no trouble changing my mind as soon as I see an explanation which is convincing enough.


Assuming this is true, and assuming I could influence you by presenting a convincing (to you) explanation, then would whatever "influence" I have exerted be a "mechanical" one.

And would your action of "changing your mind" be a random one?

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:09 pm
@layman,
It's not a dogma since it's falsifiable. All it would take to falsify Darwinism is the discovery of an entirely different species, different enough to not fit the theory, like an insect-mammal cross or a mammal with five legs or a species not using DNA or RNA for its biochemichal info stotage needs... Or an elephant fossil in Cambrian rocks. That would effectively kill the current theoretical body for evolution.

Since it's falsifiable, it's a scientific theory. And a great one at that, me think.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:20 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
It's not a dogma since it's falsifiable. All it would take to falsify Darwinism is...


That's not my definition of "dogma," but that's beside the point. It has been "falsified" at least in the minds of many modern professional evolutionary theorists.

As developed in the 20's and 30's the "modern synthesis" (aka Neo-Darwinism) proposed some inviolable precepts to be followed, such as (to name a few):

1. Strict genetic determinism (genotype dictates phenotype)
2. All genetic change is strictly random and is in no way dependent upon, or responsive to, the external environment.
3. "natural selection" almost exclusively "directs' evolutionary change, acting as a "creative force."

The hard-core, old-guard, panadaptionist segment aside, these dogmas are no longer accepted by many modern theorists.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:52 pm
@layman,
Well if it is not mechanical, it is what ? ...spooky action at a distance ?
I never assumed a free choice can be random, either with determinism or indeterminism there can be no free choices. That's the ground I coming from. A random choice has no agent behind it.
If it is not random nor deterministic it is what ? Care to elaborate ?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:54 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
I have no trouble changing my mind as soon as I see an explanation which is convincing enough.


Assuming this is true, and assuming I could influence you by presenting a convincing (to you) explanation, then would whatever "influence" I have exerted be a "mechanical" one.

And would your action of "changing your mind" be a random one?




Wut ??? Seriously ?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 01:29 pm
There are a few paradoxes related to free will. The one Layman, Fil and I have been pointing at (the impossibility of reason to reason against itself) can be expressed like this:

If you are a human being and you state that after much observation, analysis, reading, etc. you arrived at the conclusion that the mind, reason, free will, all this stuff is but the necessary by-product of some biochemical dialogue process facilitated via cells called neurons, or the result of sub-atomic particles swinging and bouncing and waving around the way they do(n't) do in their quantic world... then what?

An interesting question arises: If you are right, what credibility do you have, as a self-declared and proud automaton, to speak about such a grave and complex matter? Are automatons well known for their scientific research skills? Do they usually have any pearl of philosophical wisdom to share? Not the ones we can make... Not yet. So we have to use our imagination. What sort of automaton could claim credibility on the issue of the human mind?

... An automaton that could observe, analyse, read, etc. That could compare hypothesis, imagine conjectures and test them, and that could boild down complex data into succint statements and explain them to other automatons such as ourselves, right? That would work.

But then, that automaton would have some form of reason, agency, a mind of sorts to do all that MENTAL work. An automaton WITH REASON, and probably withbCONSCIOUS THOUGHTS, and whose conscious thoughts are absolutely necessary for the automaton to work well. To do all this reasoning...

That would be a type of automaton I could identify with. And by my definition it would have free will.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 01:41 pm
@layman,
Neo-darwinism may need a face-lift but I would be very surprised if that would change the general sense we have of darwinian evolution.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 02:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Neo-darwinism may need a face-lift but I would be very surprised if that would change the general sense we have of darwinian evolution.


I've posted a lot on this topic in other threads, so I won't try to say much here. I will submit this excerpt, from famous author and Harvard professor, Stephen Gould, from 35 years :

Quote:
I well remember how the synthetic theory beguiled me with its unifying power when I was a graduate student in the mid-1960’s. Since then I have been watching it slowly unravel as a universal description of evolution. The molecular assault came first, followed quickly by renewed attention to unorthodox theories of speciation and by challenges at the level of macroevolution itself. I have been reluctant to admit it — since beguiling is often forever — but if Mayr’s characterization of the synthetic theory is accurate, then that theory, as a general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 02:44 pm
@layman,
I've read Gould and appreciate him a lot. Still he is an ardent evolutionist, and Darwinian too. Or did I miss something?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 02:47 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
If it is not random nor deterministic it is what ? Care to elaborate ?
Deliberate.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:08 pm
@MoralPhilosopher23,
It's not an illusion that I can move my right index finger whenever I want.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:03 pm
@Tuna,
Welcome to a2k, tuna.
Something's fishy here.
What is it about your right index finger that has caused your obsession?
Point it out, please.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:07 pm
@neologist,
It's not my argument. It's John Searle's. Thanks for the welcome!
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:09 pm
I kinda feel like goin off on some kinda rant, but I aint sure what I wanna rant about.

I hate when that happens.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:12 pm
@Tuna,
I took a Turing test in a Chinese room once.

I flunked.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:22 pm
Ya know, when ya done spent your last dime, then ya aint got no more homeys. No Babe, no nuthin.

I feel sorry for these guys round this here joint who don't think they got no self. I mean, like, if ya aint gotcho own damn self, then ya aint got nuthin. Know what I'm sayin?

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:29 pm
Preachers and lawyers. Figures. Smile

Quote:
History [of free will]. Early in history it seems to have generally been assumed that everything about humans must ultimately be determined by unchangeable fate - which it was sometimes thought could be foretold by astrology or other forms of divination. Most Greek philosophers seem to have believed that their various mechanical or moral theories implied rigid determination of human actions. But especially with the advent of the Christian religion the notion that humans can at some level make free choices - particularly about whether to do good or not - emerged as a foundational idea. (The idea had also arisen in Persian and Hebrew religions and legal systems, and was supported by Roman lawyers such as Cicero.) How this could be consistent with God having infinite power was not clear, although around 420 AD Augustine suggested that while God might have infinite knowledge of the future we as humans could not - yielding what can be viewed as a very rough analog of my explanation for free will. In the 1500s some early Protestants made theological arguments against free will - and indeed issues of free will remain a feature of controversy between Christian denominations even today.


https://www.wolframscience.com/reference/notes/1135b
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 11:13 pm
Says Moliere's Tartuffe:
Quote:
"Some joys, it's true, are wrong in Heaven's eyes;
Yet Heaven's not averse to compromise;
There is a science, lately formulated,
Whereby one's conscience may be liberated,
And any wrongful act you care to mention
May be redeemed by purity of intention." (4.5.13)
Besides, we have no choice in the matter.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 11:58 pm
@Tuna,
I think I should warn you that this thread requires you to be measured for a straight jacket. I suggest you tend to that soon, lest you be overcome by the nether emanations and flail yourself unmercifully.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2015 12:50 am
Quote:
Synthese
July 2014, Volume 191, Issue 10, pp 2215-2238

First online: 17 January 2014


Willusionism, epiphenomenalism, and the feeling of conscious will
Sven Walter

Abstract

While epiphenomenalism—i.e., the claim that the mental is a causally otiose byproduct of physical processes that does not itself cause anything—is hardly ever mentioned in philosophical discussions of free will, it has recently come to play a crucial role in the scientific attack on free will led by neuroscientists and psychologists. This paper is concerned with the connection between epiphenomenalism and the claim that free will is an illusion, in particular with the connection between epiphenomenalism and willusionism, i.e., with the thesis that there is empirical evidence for a thoroughgoing skepticism with regard to free will that is based on the claim that mental states are epiphenomena. The paper discusses four arguments for willusionism that in some form or other appeal to epiphenomenalism and argues that three of them can be discarded relatively easily. The fourth one, based on Daniel Wegner’s theory of apparent mental causation and his claim that free will is an illusion because the feeling of conscious will is epiphenomenal with regard to the corresponding voluntary actions, is dealt with in more detail. The overall verdict is negative: there is no empirical evidence for any kind of epiphenomenalism that would warrant the claim that free will is an illusion. Whatever it is that makes free will the object of contention between neuroscience and philosophy, epiphenomenalism provides no reason to think that free will is an illusion.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11229-013-0393-y
0 Replies
 
 

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