40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:19 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
I think there is appeal to you regarding science.


Of course there is. You're absolutely right about that.

But I don't call much of the wild-ass metaphysical speculation tendered up by cosmologists, particle physicists, and "theory of everything" (string) theoreticians "science," either.

Insistence upon the existence of infinite dimensions, infinite "alternate universes," etc. aint science. It's, at best, metaphysics of the worst kind. At best it is comic book style science fiction.

Just because it's published in a "scientific journal" doesn't mean it's empirical science, imbued with logic.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:19 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

But that's about a totally different subject. It's about when people fall asleep and wake up... Not what's needed to prove that some neuronal activity is unconscious while the patient is awake.


So you seem to be saying that the subconscious is completely inactive during wake time. Would this be an accurate understanding of your above statement?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:30 am
@FBM,
Not ridiculous, factual rather. You're saying "science provides evidence that we should be skeltical about free will"; and I think that is factually incorrect. Science as a human endeavour is based on free will, and thus such statements are self-contradictory. They constitute more pernicious and ultimately graver attacks on science than anything denialists can say, IMO.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:34 am
@layman,
Quote:
Of course there is


Well, that's good to know. From reading the things you write, I had the impression that you found nothing beneficial about science; it's all built upon systems that are flawed to the point of making them meaningless and irrelavent, and therefore, their conclusions meaningless and irrelevant. If you don't lump all of science into metaphysics, then you agree that there are valid methods of knowing based on scientific practice, and that there have been some reasonable conclusions drawn.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:35 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

layman wrote:

Once again FBM shows that he either does not read, or does not understand, the things he posts (and even puts in BOLD lettering).

The article says:

Quote:
Whether the late BP reflects conscious preparation for intended movement or not remains to be clarified
.

See that? It says that they cannot say if the BP is conscious preparation. This is made very explicit. But what does FBM himself say it says? This:

Quote:
Subconscious neural activity is precisely what's being measured. It's what the Bereitschaftspotential is all about:


And there's no "disconnect" for him. In his mind these articles say whatever he wants them to say. No need to even read them closely.

Seconded. The guy just doesn't read what he posts.



Taking excerpts out of context is a cheap and disingenuous game. In context:

Quote:
In view of Libet et al.'s report [Libet B, Gleason CA, Wright EW, Pearl DK. Time of conscious intention to act in relation to onset of cerebral activity (readiness-potential). The unconscious initiation of a freely voluntary act. Brain 1983;106:623-642] the awareness of intention to move occurred much later than the onset of BP, the early BP might reflect, physiologically, slowly increasing cortical excitability and, behaviorally, subconscious readiness for the forthcoming movement.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:36 am
@Briancrc,
Just pick the "truth" you like the best...

The important point is that science does not claim that it can produce any final "truth". Anything a scientist concludes could be overturned by another one. If you think of science as the pursuit of truth, you are adopting a religious worship of science called scientism.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:38 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Not ridiculous, factual rather. You're saying "science provides evidence that we should be skeltical about free will"; and I think that is factually incorrect. Science as a human endeavour is based on free will, and thus such statements are self-contradictory. They constitute more pernicious and ultimately graver attacks on science than anything denialists can say, IMO.


Are you familiar with petitio principii? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

So, in your estimation, all those many thousands of scientists and philosophers who are skeptical about free will know less about it than you? You know for a fact that you're right and anyone who doesn't agree with you is just wrong?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:41 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
I bet there are many things from science with which you would agree and the logic-oriented side favors the logic behind various scientific conclusions.


Yeah, but that depends on what you call a "scientific conclusion."

Some (naïve) people think that the empirical facts dictate the theory.

Too often, it's the reverse. The so-called "scientific" theory dictates the facts (witness dark matter, as just one of many examples). That aint empirical.

Or, as Dennet (who I already quoted on this) put it:

"We know it's possible in practice, we're trying to determine if it's possible in theory."

"Science" gone way wrong, there.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:43 am
@FBM,
I don't claim to know anything positively on the issue of free will, but I can recognise a ligical paradix when I see one. To expect that science could disprove its own axioms and debase its own praxis is paradoxal. Fil understood as much: You cannot reason against reason. Try and chew on that a bit before you ask for evidence.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:46 am
@FBM,
Heh, FBM is so predictable. He does it again, proving he doesn't read, he just concludes, then asserts. First he said:

Quote:
Subconscious neural activity is precisely what's being measured. It's what the Bereitschaftspotential is all about:


Then that was shown to misstate the contents of his quote. Now he says:

Quote:
Taking excerpts out of context is a cheap and disingenuous game. In context:

"In view of Libet et al.'s report [Libet B, Gleason CA, Wright EW, Pearl DK. Time of conscious intention to act in relation to onset of cerebral activity (readiness-potential). The unconscious initiation of a freely voluntary act. Brain 1983;106:623-642] the awareness of intention to move occurred much 2later than the onset of BP, the early BP might reflect, physiologically, slowly increasing cortical excitability and, behaviorally, subconscious readiness for the forthcoming movement."


What, pray-tell, does that add to justify your obviously mistaken conclusion about what's being said? The mere presence of the word "subconscious," ya think?

Think again. This time pay attention to the word "might," eh?

And keep in the mind that the part of the excerpt which you originally presented, but which you omit now. It EXPLICITLY said that it was not known if this conscious activity. You're still trying to deny the plain wording or your own quotation.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:48 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I don't claim to know anything positively on the issue of free will, but I can recognise a ligical paradix when I see one. To expect that science could disprove its own axioms and debase its own praxis is paradoxal. Fil understood as much: You cannot reason against reason. Try and chew on that a bit before you ask for evidence.


You sure do post as if you do. Did you recognize your own begging the question paradox?

0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:56 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Just pick the "truth" you like the best


Is this how you operate in general? If a doctor tells you that the pain you've been feeling in your testicles is the result of testicular cancer and you need cancer treatment, but your buddy tells you you just need to hook up and you'll be fine, you might go with, "Well, what the doctor said sucks, what my buddy said is right and I like his idea much more than the doc's, I'm gonna skip the cancer treatment and go hook up"? While I wouldn't like what the doctor said, I would think doing number 1 followed by number 2 would be the way to go.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:09 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
what is the evidence for the existence of something non-physical?

Who said free will was "non-physical", whatever that means?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:16 am
Plenty of controversy = plenty of reason to be skeptical of any conclusion. Plenty of reason to keep abreast of developments and wait for something conclusive, rather than claim to know what isn't known.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440575/

Quote:
The Unconscious Mind
John A. Bargh and Ezequiel Morsella

The unconscious mind is still viewed by many psychological scientists as the shadow of a “real” conscious mind, though there now exists substantial evidence that the unconscious is not identifiably less flexible, complex, controlling, deliberative, or action-oriented than is its counterpart. This “conscious-centric” bias is due in part to the operational definition within cognitive psychology that equates unconscious with subliminal. We review the evidence challenging this restricted view of the unconscious emerging from contemporary social cognition research, which has traditionally defined the unconscious in terms of its unintentional nature; this research has demonstrated the existence of several independent unconscious behavioral guidance systems: perceptual, evaluative, and motivational. From this perspective, it is concluded that in both phylogeny and ontogeny, actions of an unconscious mind precede the arrival of a conscious mind—that action precedes reflection.

Contemporary perspectives on the unconscious mind are remarkably varied. In cognitive psychology, unconscious information processing has been equated with subliminal information processing, which raises the question, “How good is the mind at extracting meaning from stimuli of which one is not consciously aware?” (e.g., Greenwald, Klinger, & Schuh, 1995). Because subliminal-strength stimuli are relatively weak and of low intensity by definition, the mental processes they drive are necessarily minimal and unsophisticated, and so these studies have led to the conclusion that the powers of the unconscious mind are limited and that the unconscious is rather “dumb” (Loftus & Klinger, 1992).

Social psychology has approached the unconscious from a different angle. There, the traditional focus has been on mental processes of which the individual is unaware, not on stimuli of which one is unaware (e.g., Nisbett & Wilson, 1977). Over the past 30 years, there has been much research on the extent to which people are aware of the important influences on their judgments and decisions and of the reasons for their behavior. This research, in contrast with the cognitive psychology tradition, has led to the view that the unconscious mind is a pervasive, powerful influence over such higher mental processes (see review in Bargh, 2006).
...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:19 am
@FBM,
Quote:
you seem to be saying that the subconscious is completely inactive during wake time. Would this be an accurate understanding of your above statement?

No, it wouldn't. I am saying:

There is NO EVIDENCE that any neuronal activity preceding any given choice corresponds to unconscious, or conscious, thoughts. It could one or the other, or a mix of the two. There is currently no way to tell from magnetic resonance imaging (or any other tool). So when a scientist says something like: "unconscious brain activity seems to precede conscious volition", he or she is pulling the "unconscious" bit out of nowhere.

I trust this clarifies. I have been stating this fact again and again for days now, hence the bold font... Please read carefully and confirm understanding.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:20 am
@Olivier5,
You're raging against the experimental evidence there, homes.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:21 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Why attack the people that present the findings of the work?


Not sure what you're getting at here. To the extent that I have been "attacking" FBM (and I freely admit that I have not approved of his thought or his methods), I am not doing so simply because he "presents findings."

It's his stupid-ass demands for "data" when he (1) doesn't read or understand what he presented to begin with, and how it undermines his own conclusions about it and (2) His refusal to address the voluminous "data" that IS supplied to him.

It's his self-congratulating stance that he, and ONLY he, is acting reasonably when he spams that ****, all while exhibiting extremely feeble powers of reason.

It's all kinda irritating, know what I'm sayin?
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:25 am
Wish I had access to the whole article:


Quote:
Citation
Database: PsycARTICLES
[ Journal Article ]

Telling more than we can know: Verbal reports on mental processes.
Nisbett, Richard E.; Wilson, Timothy D.
Psychological Review
, Vol 84(3), Mar 1977, 231-259. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.84.3.231

Abstract
Reviews evidence which suggests that there may be little or no direct introspective access to higher order cognitive processes. Ss are sometimes (a) unaware of the existence of a stimulus that importantly influenced a response, (b) unaware of the existence of the response, and (c) unaware that the stimulus has affected the response. It is proposed that when people attempt to report on their cognitive processes, that is, on the processes mediating the effects of a stimulus on a response, they do not do so on the basis of any true introspection. Instead, their reports are based on a priori, implicit causal theories, or judgments about the extent to which a particular stimulus is a plausible cause of a given response. This suggests that though people may not be able to observe directly their cognitive processes, they will sometimes be able to report accurately about them. Accurate reports will occur when influential stimuli are salient and are plausible causes of the responses they produce, and will not occur when stimuli are not salient or are not plausible causes. (86 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:27 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Who said free will was "non-physical", whatever that means?


It's physical?! Terrific! Where is it?
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 06:30 am
@FBM,
Quote:
So, in your estimation, all those many thousands of scientists and philosophers who are skeptical about free will know less about it than you?

Yep. Logic is a bitch, and it trumps any credentials. Just because some scientists do not see a fact, doesn't mean it's not a fact.

It is a fact that science requires creativity, reason, understanding and ingenuity, and that it postulates that these mental things can impact on the world and be useful to us. Take down human agency, take down human reason, take down human creativity, and you take down science.
 

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