40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 03:49 am
@Briancrc,
Brian:
Quote:
And how would one be able to prove the non-existence of something non-physical? You may as well be challenged to prove that God doesn't exist.


FBM:
Quote:
A-yup.

So, you two are saying then, that experiments and so-called "scientific data" are completely worthless and irrelevant, as far as proving the claim that "there is no free will" goes, eh?

It's not even a scientific question, because it can't be falsified.

Why then the pre-occupation with, and demand for, "scientific data" pertaining to this issue?

Hmmmmm?

Just keep on insisting that there is no free will. Science has nothing to say about the topic. It's a metaphysical assertion, that's all.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 03:53 am
@layman,
Quote:
Because the first step in any scientific endeavor is to frame a hypothesis (a hypothetical EXPLANATION of some aspect of what I see). Observation does NOT come first in science. Some hypothesis is the first step. Framing a hypothesis, however implausible, is the first step.


Layman, you are describing only one approach to science (deduction)
Quote:
The inductive method starts with many observations of nature, with the goal of finding a few, powerful statements about how nature works (laws and theories). Inductive Reasoning is sometimes called the "from the bottom up" approach. When we use inductive reasoning, our specific observations and measurements may begin to show us a general pattern. This might allow us to formulate a tentative hypothesis that can be further explored, and we might finally end up making some general conclusions.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:05 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
"Inductive Reasoning is sometimes called the "from the bottom up" approach. When we use inductive reasoning, our specific observations and measurements may begin to show us a general pattern. This might allow us to formulate a tentative hypothesis that can be further explored, and we might finally end up making some general conclusions."


What are you quoting from, Brian, and why do you think it undermines my statement?

I didn't claim that there is no such thing as "inductive reasoning." Of course there is. Without it, you could never form a meaningful hypothesis. I just said it's not science.

Even hear of the "scientific method?" If so, do you know the "steps" it consists of?
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:07 am
@layman,
Quote:
I just say that bird isn't a crow. Why not? Because it isn't black, that's why. I already told you: All crows are black.


That is a specious, if not cynical, conclusion. There are more explanations than the dichotomous ones you have given. If the anatomy, physiology, and genetics of the bird are consistent with that of a crow, such that in the absence of seeing the feathers the bird is classified as a crow, then the conclusion statement could be revised from "all" to "most". When a generalization fails to hold, then the original statement should be revised; the newly discovered facts being significant enough to completely unsettle the principles of a theory. This happens in the peer-review process, which is why philosophic doubt is an assumption in science.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:19 am
@layman,
Looking at things and/or "asking questions" is not science. Science begins with a hypothesis. Wiki describes this process as follows:

Quote:
The overall process involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions to determine whether the original conjecture was correct.[5] There are difficulties in a formulaic statement of method, however. Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, they are better considered as general principles.[27] Not all steps take place in every scientific inquiry (or to the same degree), and are not always in the same order. As noted by William Whewell (1794–1866), "invention, sagacity, [and] genius"[10] are required at every step.


It requires, "invention" according to Whewell. Does an animal with no free will "invent" things, ya figure?
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:20 am
@layman,
Quote:
Even hear of the "scientific method?"


I'm going to take that as rhetorical. You described the popular hypothical-deductive scientific method; the one most students first learn in school. The inductive scientific method operates completely differently from what you described.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:28 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
That is a specious, if not cynical, conclusion.


Sure it is, but as I said, the logic is impeccable. But, that aside, take a look around.

For centuries now, scientists have convinced themselves that they "know" a "universal law of gravity." So what happens when objects no longer seem to "obey" the law of gravity?

Do they reject their theory as in any way lacking? Of course not!

They start making up **** (and LOTS of it) which, by definition, can never be directly detected because it doesn't in any way interact with light or any other matter. They call it DARK MATTER and DARK ENERGY.

By making up enough of this ****, they can now still say that "the law of gravity applies and is intact."

Geocentric Ptolemic astronomy did the same thing. But they didn't call it "dark matter." They called them "epicycles."

Same accomplishment though: They saved their most cherished theory, i.e., that the earth is at the center of the universe.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:31 am
@layman,
Quote:
Wiki describes this process as follows


Here's a different wiki answer for you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
Or, as an alternative, here's an explanation from biology4kids
http://www.biology4kids.com/files/studies_logic.html
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:35 am
@Briancrc,
Here's an interesting perspective, too: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-people-favor-opinion-over-scientific-evidence/
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:38 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Here's a different wiki answer for you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning


This article seems to be about inductive reasoning, not "science." I do note, however that the first thing it says in the "description" is:

Quote:
Inductive reasoning is inherently uncertain.


That certainly can't be "science" if you think that science, and only science, deals with "truth," eh?


Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:40 am
@FBM,
But that's about a totally different subject. It's about when people fall asleep and wake up... Not what's needed to prove that some neuronal activity is unconscious while the patient is awake.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:51 am
@layman,
Quote:
For centuries now, scientists have convinced themselves that they "know" a "universal law of gravity." So what happens when objects no longer seem to "obey" the law of gravity?

Do they reject their theory as in any way lacking? Of course not!

They start making up **** (and LOTS of it)


I see your anti-intellectual, anti-science bent. But I think you're conflicted. I think there is appeal to you regarding science. I bet there are many things from science with which you would agree and the logic-oriented side favors the logic behind various scientific conclusions. But you also seem to have a real big chip on your shoulder about people who have expertise in a field and defend a theory. It just seems to infuriate you that scientists with their fancy words and fancy degrees make strong conclusion statements. Is this some sort of inferiority complex? I don't get it. You're obviously highly intelligent and highly curious. You read broadly. Why not just stick to pointing out flaws in the data or methodology? Why attack the people that present the findings of the work? For someone who has the capacity to present really good and logical arguments it baffles me to see you go there.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:53 am
@layman,
Quote:
That certainly can't be "science" if you think that science, and only science, deals with "truth," eh?


I don't know. But what better path to the truth is there?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:54 am
@FBM,
Quote:
3) This may be the sticking point. You seem to be putting me in the position to prove that there is no free will. I have explicitly stated that this is neither my intent nor my position. I've been clear that my position is only that there is good reason to be skeptical about it. Not taking the opposite view, only suspending judgment until more conclusisve results are available.

To demonstrate that there is good reason to be skeptical, and in light of your stance that free will is a slam dunk certainty, I have posted quite a few scholarly articles that do indeed provide reasons to be skeptical. Not reasons to form a conclusion, only reasons to be skeptical.

Scholars in various fields have been engaged in a long-standing debate over it. That alone should be sufficient evidence that there are reasonable grounds to be skeptical of either conclusion. I recognize that my opinions on the topic are inferior to those who actually do work in field. Therefore, I rely on their work, rather than simply stumping and cherry picking for a conclusion that I might prefer. I don't have a preferred conclusion; I'm simply looking at plenty of reason to skeptically suspend judgment.

I couldn't care less what your position is on the matter. I do pay attention though, which is more than can be said about you, because the matter is important to me and I don't want naive, uninformed readers to think that science disproves free will. It certainly does not, and if it ever does, it would by logical necessity disprove science too, since the very idea of science is based on the idea of free will, or at least agency.

You can continue to "suspend judgement", willfully ignorant that the very concepts of "judgenent" AND "suspending judgement" impliy free will in the first place. I will continue to point that out, and to point at your logical contradictions and fallacies. I will continue to point out that science presupposes human reason and agency; and that automatons can't do science. Tough luck if you don't like it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 04:56 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Once again FBM shows that he either does not read, or does not understand, the things he posts (and even puts in BOLD lettering).

The article says:

Quote:
Whether the late BP reflects conscious preparation for intended movement or not remains to be clarified
.

See that? It says that they cannot say if the BP is conscious preparation. This is made very explicit. But what does FBM himself say it says? This:

Quote:
Subconscious neural activity is precisely what's being measured. It's what the Bereitschaftspotential is all about:


And there's no "disconnect" for him. In his mind these articles say whatever he wants them to say. No need to even read them closely.

Seconded. The guy just doesn't read what he posts.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:03 am
@FBM,


This article deals so-called with type 1 vs type 2 thinking. Type one is said to be:

Quote:
When we approach a problem, our natural default is to tap the least tiring cognitive process. Typically this is what psychologists call type 1 thinking,


Type 2, on the other hand...

Quote:
is slower and involves processing more cues in the environment....understanding scientific evidence, a more recent achievement, involves more complex, logical and difficult type 2 processing
.

FBM thinks that when he mindlessly cuts and pastes abstracts from scientific journals he is demonstrating "complex, type 2" thinking. Yet he seemingly doesn't really even try to UNDERSTAND the "scientific evidence."

He's showing prototypical "lazy" type 1 thinking, that's all.

In keeping with the article title's contrast, he favors opinion (of some scientist) over "scientific evidence," which he doesn't really even try to understand.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:05 am
@Briancrc,
Briancrc wrote:

Quote:
That certainly can't be "science" if you think that science, and only science, deals with "truth," eh?


I don't know. But what better path to the truth is there?

If it's truth you're after, i suggest religion. They deal with that. Science deals with falsifiable theories, observations and doubts, but not "truth".
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:05 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I couldn't care less what your position is on the matter. I do pay attention though, which is more than can be said about you, because the matter is important to me and I don't want naive, uninformed readers to think that science disproves free will.


If you were to actually address my position on the matter, instead of the one you insist on projecting onto me, then you might understand how ridiculous this part of your post is. Who's the one not reading?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:13 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
If it's truth you're after, i suggest religion. They deal with that. Science deals with falsifiable theories, observations and doubts, but not "truth".


You do seem to have a religious fervor about the truth you claim to know regarding free will.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:15 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
If it's truth you're after, i suggest religion


If religion is the answer, then which one? The different religions have some very different perspectives.
 

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