40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2015 06:20 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Excerpts from a long, yet entertaining and insightful, rant from a scientist about scientism, entitled "The Folly of Scientism:"


And a different point of view, excerpted and entitled "The folly of 'The folly of scientism'"

Quote:
It’s open season on scientism again! Hughes is an evolutionary biologist with wide-ranging interests, and I’ve really liked some of his papers. Unfortunately, his ten-page essay in The New Atlantis, “The Folly of Scientism,” is not one of them. It’s a strongly-worded critique of scientism, which Hughes conceives of as scientists’ claim that only their fields can provide true knowledge of the universe, and can also answer questions that aren’t really in their bailiwick:

The big problem with Hughes’s essay is that despite his claim that there are other ways of apprehending truth beyond science—ways that involve the three areas of ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology—he gives not a single example of a question that those disciplines have answered. And, indeed, although practitioners of those disciplines may suggest answers to questions like “what is the meaning of life?” or “is it ever permissible to torture someone?,” those answers are subjective, not universally agreed on, and don’t involve “truth” in the same way scientists conceive it. One reader, responding to a suggestion that “truths” be divided into “objective (e.g., scientific) truths” and “subjective truths,” argued that we should just call these categories “truth” and “opinion” respectively!

A characteristic of articles on “scientism” is their loud proclamation that there are other ways of knowing truth, combined with a complete failure to cite any questions that been answered by these other ways. Hughes’s essay falls right into this pattern. Oh, he disses science a lot, accusing it of often failing to progress (he argues, for instance, that behavioral ecology “oscillates happily” and never makes progress, a statement that is dead wrong), and of enabling bad stuff like Lysenkosim in the Soviet Union and eugenics in countries like Germany and the U.S.

Hughes even drags in Alvin Plantinga’s argument that science can’t explain why human can do science, for natural selection hasn’t really given us the refined abilities to discern truth the way that modern scientists do. But that’s bunk. Natural selection has given us faculties to perceive truths about what is outside of our brains, and also bequeathed us brains big enough that we can refine our methods of discerning what’s out there in ways that keep us from deceiving ourselves. That involves prediction, replication, and observation or experiment by multiple people. The equipment for our doing science was installed by natural selection, but of course the actual doing of modern science is a spandrel, not an adaptation that was produced by selection.

Hughes makes lots of fancy-pants talk about Quine, philosophy, and positivism, but in the end his essay is a dog’s breakfast that leaves the reader with no idea of what the “other ways of knowing” really are, and what questions they have actually answered. Instead, one comes away with a disquieting feeling that science isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. But Hughes’s critique of science (viz., his attack on behavioral ecology) is unconvincing.

His conclusion (you can read the essay if you wish, but I doubt you’ll learn much) is this:

In contrast to reason, a defining characteristic of superstition is the stubborn insistence that something — a fetish, an amulet, a pack of Tarot cards — has powers which no evidence supports. From this perspective, scientism appears to have as much in common with superstition as it does with properly conducted scientific research. Scientism claims that science has already resolved questions that are inherently beyond its ability to answer.

In other words—and we’ve heard this before, usually from religious people—scientism is a superstition, a faith akin to religious belief. But this statement bears no weight since Hughes hasn’t proffered a single question that’s been answered by metaphysics, ethics, or other “ways of knowing.” In fact, he winds up by issuing an idle threat about what will happen if we hubristic scientists continue to ignore those other ways:

Of all the fads and foibles in the long history of human credulity, scientism in all its varied guises — from fanciful cosmology to evolutionary epistemology and ethics — seems among the more dangerous, both because it pretends to be something very different from what it really is and because it has been accorded widespread and uncritical adherence. Continued insistence on the universal competence of science will serve only to undermine the credibility of science as a whole. The ultimate outcome will be an increase of radical skepticism that questions the ability of science to address even the questions legitimately within its sphere of competence. One longs for a new Enlightenment to puncture the pretensions of this latest superstition.

In other words, scientism will destroy the credibility of science. LOL!

I’m not sure whether “scientism,” if it even exists (which I doubt), pretends to be something other than what it is. If it does, what does it pretend to be? Hughes is whistling in the dark here, for nothing is going to happen even if a few scientists do make exaggerated claims about the boundaries of their field. Science will progress as it always has, answering one question after another, while religion and other “ways of knowing” remain stuck in the mire. The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2015 06:48 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
And a different point of view


Have a citation for that, Brian?
layman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2015 07:03 pm
@layman,
I see that the pronouncements you quoted come from Jerry Coyne. I haven't read Jerry Coyne's book, entitled "Why Evolution is True," so I don't know what kind of claims it contains.

But I will say that, on the face of it (i.e., going by the title alone) he must subscribe to "scientism" himself. No one with any sophistication in matters pertaining to the formation and testing of scientific theories would ever literally claim that evolution (or any other scientific theory) is "true." Science does not, and does not honestly purport to, deal in matters of "truth."

It's possible that he's not talking about evolution as a theory, I suppose.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2015 08:33 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

layman wrote:
God, this slavish devotion to scientism gets tedious.
Have you noticed?
If it's researchers you agree with, call it evidence.
If it's researchers you disagree with, call it. argumentum ad populum. Laughing


http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#RefutationbyCaricature
Quote:
Refutation by Caricature

See Ad Hominem.


Regression

This fallacy occurs when regression to the mean is mistaken for a sign of a causal connection. Also called the Regressive Fallacy. It is a kind of false cause fallacy.

Example:

You are investigating the average heights of groups of people living in the United States. You sample some people living in Columbus, Ohio and determine their average height. You have the numerical figure for the mean height of people living in the U.S., and you notice that members of your sample from Columbus have an average height that differs from this mean. Your second sample of the same size is from people living in Dayton, Ohio. When you find that this group's average height is closer to the U.S. mean height [as it is very likely to be due to common statistical regression to the mean], you falsely conclude that there must be something causing people living in Dayton to be more like the average U.S. resident than people living in Columbus.

There is most probably nothing causing people from Dayton to be more like the average resident of the U.S.; but rather what is happening is that averages are regressing to the mean.



All you have to do is construct an argument based on evidence and without logical fallacies, then you've got something worth discussing. If your hypothesis depends on one or more logical fallacies, it's only proper to call you on it.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 12:10 am
Quote:
The big problem with Hughes’s essay is that despite his claim that there are other ways of apprehending truth beyond science.. (Coyne)


I don't recall Hughes claiming that "truth" was produced by any intellectual discipline. Only Coyne does that, and then he arrogates "apprehending truth" to science alone.

Devout disciple of scientism, sho nuff.

Then he asks what science pretends to do (be) that it hasn't done (isn't). Hughes made it clear--claiming to do more than it is capable of, i.e., exactly what Jerry "Scientism" Coyne just did, in other words.

Go figure, eh?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 12:50 am
@FBM,
Alright, i agree with you, free will and agency are illusion; and therefore science is an illusion. All these article you posted about were just the mindless, useless products of automatons on autopilot... :-(
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 12:54 am
@FBM,
In the end, any conclusions that may be drawn by deviations in height sampling would have to come from some agreement as to what sample sizes and what amount of deviation would be needed to reach such conclusions. Sample sizes of, let's say, 10 with a 1" deviation would be much less notable than sample sizes of 100 with a 6" deviation. By some arrangement or agreement, the researchers would have to set parameters for how they could gather evidence and state their conclusions. But any agreement they reach, no matter how carefully considered, would be arbitrary.

Nothing wrong with arbitrary, so long as it works. Be careful when you treat it as an absolute, though. Frank might chastise you.
layman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 12:58 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Alright, i agree with you, free will and agency are illusion; and therefore science is an illusion. All these article you posted about were just the mindless, useless products of automatons on autopilot... :-(


All too often, people can't see that their glib arguments "prove too much," and that they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The logical positivists of the first half of the 20th century went on in this vein for decades before this deficiency in their thought was widely acknowledged.

In the zealous process of trying to create a monopoly for "science" and eliminate "metaphysics," they, unwittingly, undermined the entire basis for science. Not surprising that this once dominant "philosophy of science" is now defunct, eh?
layman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 01:14 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Have you noticed?
If it's researchers you agree with, call it evidence.
If it's researchers you disagree with, call it. argumentum ad populum.


True dat, Neo.

It seems that FBM is quite fond of going down his (evidently recently discovered) internet list of informal fallacies and (mis)applying one to anyone he disagrees with.

Of course it never even occurs to him that the "scientific" conclusions of Libet, et al, could well be a simple case of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

He really seems to think that the "data" collected dictate one, and only one, possible interpretation/conclusion (i.e., the one assigned by a scientist he wants to agree with). That's what makes it so tedious. No analysis, no discussion, just smug spamming premised on the preposterous assumption that it's all self-explanatory and indubitable (because, by God, it's SCIENCE!).
layman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 01:42 am
@layman,
I often just lay back and let the "wisdom" of my body, my subconscious, or whatever, make judgments and decisions for me.

But of course I freely choose to delegate that responsibility.

I figure, for example, that if beer tastes good, then it is good for me. "Evolution" makes that obvious, ya know?

The conclusion, and infallible guide, for my future actions as they relate to beer is then self-evident: The more beer, the more better!
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 02:45 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Alright, i agree with you, free will and agency are illusion; and therefore science is an illusion. All these article you posted about were just the mindless, useless products of automatons on autopilot... :-(


Where did I claim that free will and agency are illusions? I don't get the feeling that this is an intentional straw man, but it doesn't represent any of my claims.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 02:48 am
@neologist,
Height of what? What are you talking about? Where/what are these things I'm allegedly treating as absolutes?
Briancrc
 
  3  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 03:45 am
@FBM,
Does this sound like anything you’ve experienced in the debates?

Quote:
Denialists often claim that an established set of knowledge or scientific theory is not proven or "sound" and lacks evidence (or enough evidence). They say it is a controversy, requires balance, or requires both the strengths and weaknesses be considered. These tactics make the denialists appear "fair" (and those who oppose them not) and implies doubt in what is being denied with no consideration of evidence. Denialist groups also produce competing evidence through their own "research", which is often poorly performed (if at all) as it often is done by public relations firms with no technical expertise. They encourage people to form their own opinions or do their own tests, rather than relying on studies with appropriate methods and controls. Lists of experts (who may have no credentials in the area) are compiled as testimonials, or public relations campaigns are used to improve denialists' images (and slime legitimate scholars). Actual errors in mainstream science will often be blown out of proportion.[9] Most denialist rhetoric is focused at the layperson and not the expert, and usually paints a contrast between two positions rather than being about one point-of-view.[10] The use of self-generated content on the Internet ("Web 2.0") unfortunately contributes to the dissemination of denialist arguments.


There are many parallels between this topic, and how climate science and evolution are debated in public forums.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 03:54 am
@Briancrc,
Yep. I would add to the description that the denialist approach also includes a liberal sprinkling of logical fallacies (red herrings, straw men, appeal to ignorance, ad homs of various sorts, etc), often repeated despite having had them identified previously, gratuitously emotive language, unbalanced concern for appearing to win the argument rather than simply sharing and/or learning in a mature and mutually respectful exhange, evidenced by a 'heels dug in and damn the evidence' approach, resorting to petty sarcasm when all else fails, etc. I could probably go on, but you get the picture, I'm sure.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 04:34 am
@Briancrc,
Bullseye !
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 05:13 am
@FBM,
I do. I'm probably not saying what hasn't been said before, but we're all pretty happy to have experts in mechanics, architecture, structural engineering, dentistry, etc. There are, of course, arguments that erupt within fields like architecture, but they seem to mostly be between members that have selected the discipline as their vocation. I don't for example see attacks from non-professionals against dentistry. I'm going to guess because there isn't a widely held world view of the purpose of molars that's in contention. The experts of these fields are not derided like evolutionary biologists, behavioral scientists, and climate scientists are. Why are these scientists singled out and accused of operating outside their areas of expertise? Well, either there is a pattern of practice that fits that description or there's an alternative explanation.

One of the fears expressed if climate science is right is that free-market capitalistic societies will turn to communism, become heavily regulated, and we'll all be forced to drive a Prius.

If evolution is correct, then one of the fears is that it will mean that we won't see our loved-ones again after death.

Issues like these and the ones discussed in this particular forum are so important to people that it seems as though fears about what might happen if we were to shift our views (and possibly the way we treat one another) will only lead to disaster. I'm more optimistic than that.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 05:22 am
@Briancrc,
Fear does seem to be an underlying motive throughout, doesn't it? Fear of death, fear of non-existence as a consciousness, fear of hell, fear of separation from loved ones, fear of losing an internet argument... Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 07:26 am
@FBM,
Fear of responsibility... Fear of freedom...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 07:32 am
@Olivier5,
Responsibility sucks balls, but I take it on as a matter of necessity and self-discipline. Freedom? Wtf. That's what I live for. Why would anyone be afraid of that? The most free-willers I've crossed paths with are those wed to the idea of an invisible friend in the sky who will make everything alright for them in the by and by, pie in the sky. Just sayin'.

Still waiting for some experimental evidence that supports your free will hypothesis. I don't generally engage red herrings very long.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2015 07:35 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Where did I claim that free will and agency are illusions?

And I never said I was dead certain about free will either.

Quote:
it doesn't represent any of my claims.

Your claim is that only scientific experiments can prove free will to exist or not. My counterclaim is that science is itself based on the assumption that reason exist, that agency exist, and therefore that freedom of choice exist. Science will never ever prove that freedom of choice does not exist, because if it ever does so, it will destroy its own legitimacy and therefore its conclusions will ceased to be credible. QED
 

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