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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 02:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Reason from Latin Ratio:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ratio
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 02:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
There is a long-established formal (not informal) logical fallacy called "affirming the consequent."

An example might be:

1. If God just hauled off an took a big piss over the earth, the ground would get wet.
2. Looky here! The ground is wet!
3. Therefore God just took a big piss.

Any claimed "proof" supposedly demonstrated by any so-called "scientific" experiment is, in fact, just another instance of someone "affirming the consequent."

Rather common, around these here parts, actually.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 03:45 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Conveniently ignored when I first posted it:


I have commented on it, and virtually every other experiment that you have spammed without much comment beyond assertions to the effect that "It doesn't look good for free will.

With respect to this particular paper, I posed this question, among others.

Quote:
If this "increase in firing rate" IS the decision to move, then why would it continue to increase (1) after the decision has been made, (2) after he is consciously aware of the (already determined) decision, and (3) EVEN AFTER action has already been taken?


Like almost all my other questions and comments about these experiments, all this was "conveniently ignored," by you and all the other staunch "no free will" dogmatists in this thread.

I don't expect anything different this time.

What I do expect is more spamming, without comment or any kind of critical analysis whatsoever, of more and more "scientific proofs," that free will can't exist.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 04:01 pm
I liked Dennet's analogy about the applicability of the question (usually franed as a positive assertion) of whether "you could do otherwise."

I doubt that many have looked at the video posted, so I will summarize.

Suppose Dennet is going down the freeway with a passenger at 60 mph, and says "I could be going 70 mph, instead of 60."

His passenger then poses a challenge: But could you do it under these exact same circumstances!?

Dennet replies: "No, I couldn't. I would have to press down on the gas pedal a little more first."

Needless to say, asking if you could do (or be doing) something different under "the exact same circumstances" is merely a pseudo question. It has already answered itself by setting conditions which can only lead to one conclusion. Big deal.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 04:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
"reasoning" is nothing different from doing a complex calculation


No, it is something different than mechanical calculation. Having the ability to "reason" implies the ability to independently evaluate, judge, assess, imagine, voluntarily discriminate between likely and unlikely scenarios, etc.

If you are "programmed" to think all the thoughts you do, then none of those things, which are required in order to actually "reason," are possible.

Ergo: Reasoning is an "illusion."

QED
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 04:53 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Reason is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, applying logic, establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information...

it is the means by which rational beings understand themselves to think about cause and effect, truth and falsehood, and what is good or bad....

It is also closely identified with the ability to self-consciously change beliefs, attitudes, traditions, and institutions, and therefore with the capacity for freedom and self-determination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason

Yeah, sumthin like that there, eh?

Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 05:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
It cannot fully explain what you and I are doing right now, for instance (conversation)


It actually does a very good job at helping to explain what we are doing right now, and a better job than anything else I have found.
http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ848686.pdf
Quote:
We have described our research findings in this summary rather than all of the literature on verbal behavior because that would be beyond the scope of a single article. Interested readers are encourage to review issues of The Analysis of Verbal Behavior for other research findings and theoretical analyses in verbal behavior...In closing, we acknowledge that there are many more conceptual research studies needed on Skinner’s theory. However, our specific goal was and continues to be pragmatic; that is, does
the theory provide potential solutions to instructional or treatment problems that we encounter with our students? That is, does it work? Our answer to date is that Skinner’s theory has allowed us to serve our students more effectively and to reorganize instruction and curricula into repertoires of function—it works!
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 05:27 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
It actually does a very good job at helping to explain what we are doing right now, and a better job than anything else I have found.
http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ848686.pdf


A brief excerpt from that paper:

Quote:
When children emit mands or other forms of verbal behavior naturally and without verbal questions or prompts from others, their speech is characterized as spontaneous. Theso-called “spontaneity” in speech seems to emerge from the child without any environmental sources (Pinker, 2000). Such spontaneity is often seen as missing in children with autism or other language delays....


"Without any environmental sources," eh? Where's the determinism here?

Oh, I see. The claim is that:

Quote:
Those that are seemingly spontaneous are under the control of variables that a structural analysis omits (i.e., pure mand and tact conditions).


Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:16 pm
@layman,


Yes, the explanation for spontaneity was a littler further in the paragraph

Quote:
Verbal behavior theory and research identified the relevant and often inconspicuous sources of spontaneity in speech as certain establishing operations and an audience that might deliver (Lodhi & Greer, 1989; Williams & Greer, 1993). Often speech that is characterized as “non-spontaneous” consists of verbal emissions that are emitted under certain prompted vocal verbal antecedents (e.g., say “thank you,” “what do you want?”) rather than the establishing operations without verbal antecedents


Quote:
LAYMAN: "Without any environmental sources," eh? Where's the determinism here?


States of deprivation are susceptible to measurement. You can measure the length of time since something was last accessed. Also, examples like consuming salt increase the value of consuming liquids (like water or beer).

The author wrote:
Quote:
seemingly spontaneous
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:20 pm
@Briancrc,
One thing about operant conditioning that I've always believed is that physical punishment can, to some extent, deter behavior.

If you take a 4-year old, hook him up to 110 volts, and shock the **** out of him every time he says "milk," then chances are good that, after a spell, you won't here him saying "milk" anymore. At least not while he's hooked up to that machine.

You might trick him a few times, after he's supposedly learned his lesson, by offering him a glass of milk when he's thirsty, but asking him to tell you what it is first. Then, when you finally induce him to say "milk," you once again shock the piss out of him. After that, he aint even gunna answer ya, thirsty, or not.

Spare the rod and spoil the child, and all that there, eh? Somehow, people figured that out a long time ago without the aid of "science." God only knows how.
think rethink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:31 pm
Free will is definitely an illusion, as long as the "will" bin, contains will, mixed with unrealistic wish and dream, under the same powerful label.

Should one prefer an example, politely request it please.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:39 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Somehow, people figured that out a long time ago without the aid of "science."


Still, ya gotta wonder why, if the theory is so articulate and compelling, even people who profess to practice don't really understand it, ya know?

Quote:
In the 45 years since its publication, the theory has been dismissed by Chomsky (1959) (apparently as a result of confusion –see Chomsky & Place;( 2000) and misunderstood by psychologists and linguists –including many behavior analysts (see MacCorquodale, 1970).

Skinner and other radical behaviorists were slow in responding to the critics (MacCorquodale, 1970). However, over the last two decades, a few behavior analysts have acted to explain the theory.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:50 pm
@layman,
Quote:
If you take a 4-year old, hook him up to 110 volts, and shock the **** out of him every time he says "milk," then chances are good that, after a spell, you won't here him saying "milk" anymore. At least not while he's hooked up to that machine


What does this have to do with anything?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:54 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Anal Verbal Behav. 2009 Dec; 25(1): 87–98.

Although Skinner's Verbal Behavior (1957) was published over 50 years ago, behavior-analytic research on human language and cognition has been slow to develop. In recent years, a new behavioral approach to language known as relational frame theory (RFT) has generated considerable attention, research, and debate. The controversy surrounding RFT can be difficult to fully appreciate, partly because of the complexity of the theory itself and partly because the debate has spanned several years and several journals...

Whereas behavior analysts have grown accustomed to harsh criticism from those outside their discipline or worldview (e.g., Chomsky, 1959), it is less common for a behavioral theory to generate so much intense debate within the field itself. It is probably accurate to say that RFT has become one of the most , hotly contested topics in modern behavior analysis.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779078/

Where's the consensus, I ask ya?

Quote:
Much of the controversy surrounding RFT seems to stem from two primary sources. First, it is a treatment of human language that differs substantially from that offered by our field's founding father, B. F. Skinner (1957). Although RFT is an extension of Skinner's view of verbal behavior in some respects (Barnes-Holmes, Barnes-Holmes, & Cullinan, 2000), its proponents are also directly critical of key components of Skinner's analysis. Given Skinner's prominence and importance in the development of behavioral psychology, it is not surprising that a theory challenging his view on a topic, particularly one as important as verbal behavior, might be met with apprehension, suspicion, and even contempt.


Ya just can't run around dissing icons, can't they see that? Either agree with Skinner or STFU.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:56 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
What does this have to do with anything?


Conditioning, behaviorist style, eh? Proving that environment CAUSES the response, and all that.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 06:58 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Still, ya gotta wonder why, if the theory is so articulate and compelling, even people who profess to practice don't really understand it, ya know?


Not really. It's a phenomenon that exists in every field. Ever hear about a bad lawyer? Ever hear about a bad doctor? Ever hear about a bad mechanic?

Quote:
[Behavior Analysis] is characterized by a degree of internal coherence unmatched by other subdisciplines. Its subject matter is carefully defined and generally agreed upon by researchers within the field. Its methods of data collection, analysis, and interpretation are also agreed upon to an extent not found in other areas . . . Second, it is distinct from the contemporary mainstream of experimental psychology in that its historical influences have led to the development of a descriptive, observational, and integrative system of inductively derived principles, in contrast to the theory-driven, hypothetico-deductively derived, statistical principles of most branches of experimental psychology (Chiesa, 1994, p. 7).
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 07:02 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Where's the consensus, I ask ya?


Well...let's see...for starters there's the...

National Academy of Sciences
The National Research Council
The US Surgeon General
Maine Administrators of Services for Children with Disabilities
New York State Dept. of Health
US Dept. of Health and Human Services

This is good practice for me. Keep em coming.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 07:04 pm
@layman,
Its just one of the old fox tricky answers... read it twice if needed be mate.
If there is no will to step further on the gas then there is no different conditions, perhaps a dog decide to cross the road at the wrong time and prevented you from stepping on gas, external conditioning, or god dammit, 60 miles is the "feeling good" right now velocity, which its way behind your consciousness of it when you finally get the feeling, hence why you feel free when it comes ...miss mashing on the talk does not change a thing. A character in a film could be saying all along the film I could this I could that but just like the past the future in front is what happens next, one ! While I believe in choices being made I don't believe those choices are free from anything. They are the outcomes of billions and billions of interactions that are way past what you call "you" or any middle age notion of self.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 07:17 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Its methods of data collection, analysis, and interpretation are also agreed upon to an extent not found in other areas . . .


Really? That's not what I hear from the Analysis of Verbal Behavior Journal as of 2009, eh?

Quote:
if the RFT analysis is accurate, it has drastic implications for how we conduct a science of human behavior (Hayes & Berens, 2004). ... Such analyses often require new experimental procedures and can lead to interventions that seem foreign and perhaps unnerving to many behavior analysts.

Many seem to believe the field has adequately addressed verbal behavior, thanks to Skinner's 1957 book. Unfortunately, the impact of Skinner's analysis on research and application has been limited...

Although research based on Skinner's verbal operants is increasing (Sautter & LeBlanc, 2006), both the volume and scope of this research remain underwhelming at best...

Dymond, O'Hora, Whelan, and O'Donovan (2006) found that during the period of 1984 to 2004 “the majority of citations of Verbal Behavior were from nonempirical articles” (p. 81).


Nonempirical? But I thought this was settled "science," eh?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 07:22 pm
@layman,
There is a subtle distinction to be made between reasoning and Reason. Raison d'etre...the use of reasoning derives from the existence of Reason in the first place and that is ratio. Take that out, and your are "reasoning" pink elephants in a mental institution or an asylum...
 

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