Is free-will an illusion?

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
Reason is an illusion is itself an attempt at reasoning something.

No it isn't. It's a flat, presupposed assertion, no more, no less. It's the "starting point" of my metaphysical conception of the universe.

A "starting point" at what if not at reasoning ? As you put it:
Your "metaphysical CONCEPTION of the Universe"...
Is that not an attempt at reasoning something ??? It clearly seems to me it is.
But granting you the benefit of the doubt whatever that might entail then if its not reasoning it is meaningless...you might just as well write some hieroglyphs and say, here, this states nothing.

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@layman,

The processes in existence within space and time have causes...in the least they reflect patterns and correlations to great detail. Existence of Reality has no cause per se. It cannot cause itself it can only be opposed to what can't be. Its explanation is necessarily metaphysic and therefore entails an assumption that cannot be proved.
Reason for instance cannot be questioned without destroying the reasoning for questioning in the first place.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Your "metaphysical CONCEPTION of the Universe"...
Is that not an attempt at reasoning something ??? It clearly seems to me it is.
But granting you the benefit of the doubt whatever that might entail then if its not reasoning it is meaningless...you might just as well write some hieroglyphs and say, here, this states nothing.

Why not apply this analysis to (your) axiom that "All is Being, Becoming doesn't exist."

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@Fil Albuquerque,

"Reasoning is an illusion, because there is no free will."

New fundamental axiom here, i.e., that there is no free will.

If all your thoughts have been predetermined by prior, inevitable circumstances, then you cannot be said to be "reasoning" in any meaningful sense of the word.

A computer will spit out answers, but it does not "reason."

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@layman,

I did !
Hence why I always defend the idea of causation itself being a social construct sort of a within time pov "explanation" to a world that a fundamental level is prior to spacetime being itself born. A metaphysical world. In this sense there is no cause as we perceive it. Reality is a block Universe which is eternal and standing still like the photo grams in a movie except its 3D not 2D...now what cannot be questioned without destroying the questioning itself is that there is a rational, a pattern in the sequence, the ordering of this reality. We describe such pattern correlation as " cause" and " effect" !

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Let me clarify what Metaphysics really is and is not. Because to my knowledge nobody has done this right before. I am doing it now.
Metaphysics is not about things being beyond physics per se, but about our knowledge of things not being ever complete or justified from within. Metaphysics reflects the lack of possible fundamental knowledge on the state of affairs of reality which whatever itself is, is something. We might call it "physical" as I call myself Philip...it doesn't change a thing about it Being !
Metaphysics doesn't change the nature of world from physical to non physical...Metaphysics acknowledges that our conceptualization is an assumption without final proof. Reason its the final barrier that itself cannot be questioned without destroying the meaning of questioning in the first place. Hence why whatever the world is it is within REASON. Nonetheless stating that the world has Reason doesn't explain what that reason is.

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Dilemma for the determinist:

1. If all our thoughts are predetermined, then we are incapable of reasoning.

2. If we cannot reason, then any assertion that we have no free will is, by definition, "irrational."

Either way, one can never say that it is "reasonable" to conclude (let alone assert as a proven fact) that there is no free will.

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Dilemma for the determinist:

1. If all our thoughts are predetermined, then we are incapable of reasoning.

2. If we cannot reason, then any assertion that we have no free will is, by definition, "irrational."

Either way one can never say that it is "reasonable" to conclude (let alone assert as a proven fact) that there is no free will.

It doesn't mean nothing of the sort as "reasoning" is nothing different from doing a complex calculation through a computer and get an algorithmic solution to a problem. Computers don't have free will but they can do calculations.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Computers don't have free will but they can do calculations.

Of course they can do calculations. But how, and why?

Because they have been programmed to do so by a purposive agent with enough "free will" to allow them to reason and implement their purposes.

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@layman,

Evolution "programmed" us through natural selection pressure mechanisms, don't ya know ?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Evolution "programmed" us through natural selection pressure mechanisms, don't ya know ?

Heh, now you haul out the ill-defined, catch-all "power" which answers every question, "Evolution," eh?

Evolution sounds just like God somehow.

Assuming "Evolution" did it changes nothing. You are still "programmed" by your own admission.

At it's fundamental level "evolution" just means "change over time." But change is simply an "illusion," right? So why do you make an appeal to "evolution?"

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@layman,

Yes we are programmed (in my pov) through Evolution.
No Evolution is nothing like a God. Never met one either. But the current ones on sale don't resemble it.
Yes Evolution is a description within spacetime just like the idea of causation is.
Yes nothing changes within all spacetime continuum as the past present and future are co existent although ordered in a rational sequence with patterns. Yes real change it is an illusion.
You welcome.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Yes we are programmed (in my pov) through Evolution.

OK, assuming that's true, let's get back to the issue.

Reason is an illusion.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Nonetheless stating that the world has Reason doesn't explain what that reason is.

It's a start though. There is reason, and for some reason, we can reason (well or not).

What do you think is the reason? Why are we, humans, endowed with reason?

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
Computers don't have free will but they can do calculations.

Of course they can do calculations. But how, and why?

Because they have been programmed to do so by a purposive agent with enough "free will" to allow them to reason and implement their purposes.

Exactly.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

By the way, Stephen Gould, and virtually every other "mainstream" evolutionary theorist I am aware of, insists that the course of evolution is "accidental," not inevitable. The claim is that if you started the universe all over again, you would not get the same results from evolution.

Sounds kinda "indeterminate," know what I'm sayin.

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@Olivier5,

Reason comes from ratio which in turn points to order and patternicity in the world. Reason in the world, us included, entails these patterns are all we can be certain of although we haven't got the computing power to establish with clear cut detail exactly what they are. Nonetheless is exactly this patternicitty in the world that provides us with the perception of cause and effect between sequences of events. Without patterns, without reason, no causal mechanical explanation can be provided.

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@layman,

layman wrote:

By the way, Stephen Gould, and virtually every other "mainstream" evolutionary theorist I am aware of, insists that the course of evolution is "accidental," not inevitable. The claim is that if you started the universe all over again, you would not get the same results from evolution.

Sounds kinda "indeterminate," know what I'm sayin.

Whether there is true randomness in the world or just pseudo randomness that we cannot compute is a matter of debate for mathematics. No conclusion has been done. By the way recently a scientific journal, sorry can't recall what exactly, published something about evolution not being random variation. Can't give you much details on it I barely recall reading it en passent. One thing is certain even if variation is random the mechanisms of natural selection are well constrained by the environment. What goes or stays is not random.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

By the way recently a scientific journal, sorry can't recall what exactly, published something about evolution not being random variation. Can't give you much details on it I barely recall reading it en passent.

From what I know, there appear to be more and more studies coming out which tend to show, and more and more evolutionary theorists concluding, that a fundamental precept of Neo-Darwinism (aka the "modern synthesis'), random variation, is unsound. The claim is that at least some mutations are "directed" toward achieving a desired end. Many say these are "self-directed," selected and/or originated by the organism itself.

Same with "natural selection," which many theorists now believe is almost insignificant as a "driving force" of evolution.

All rejected by dogmatic Neo-Darwinists as blasphemous "LaMarckism," of course. To them, what's possible in practice is irrelevant. It's only what's possible "in theory" that counts.

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
Yes we are programmed (in my pov) through Evolution.

OK, assuming that's true, let's get back to the issue.

Reason is an illusion.

...our perception of reality is a Real illusion. Really !
You are aware that illusions in order to exist must be real illusions right ?
What kind of illusion is not a real illusion ???

By the way its a fantastic natural construct, I am very well pleased with what we got for a movie. Nice ride !

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Is free-will an illusion?

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