40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 08:13 am
@FBM,
The data from your link (fig. 7) indicate a decoding success rate of 55-60%. Barely better than flipping a coin.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 08:17 am
@Olivier5,
Through your own words a couple of posts back you believe in causal relations and now not in determinism...I don't even know how to comment that except to say you are extremely ignorant on the implications of your own beliefs...there is no way of talking stupidity into any sort of valid logic conclusion so you are back to ignore.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 08:37 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

The data from your link (fig. 7) indicate a decoding success rate of 55-60%. Barely better than flipping a coin.


Rhetoric aside, anything "better than flipping a coin" is significant, considering the paucity of experimental evidence brought to bear for the free will side.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 08:44 am
@FBM,
Conveniently ignored when I first posted it:

FBM wrote:

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(10)01082-2

Quote:
Internally Generated Preactivation of Single Neurons in Human Medial Frontal Cortex Predicts Volition
Itzhak Friedcorrespondenceemail, Roy Mukamel, Gabriel Kreiman

Highlights
Progressive changes in firing rates precede self-initiated movements
Medial frontal cortex units signal volition onset before subjects' awareness
Prediction level is high (90%) based on neuronal responses in single trials
Volition could arise from accumulation of ensemble activity crossing a threshold

Summary
Understanding how self-initiated behavior is encoded by neuronal circuits in the human brain remains elusive. We recorded the activity of 1019 neurons while twelve subjects performed self-initiated finger movement. We report progressive neuronal recruitment over ∼1500 ms before subjects report making the decision to move. We observed progressive increase or decrease in neuronal firing rate, particularly in the supplementary motor area (SMA), as the reported time of decision was approached. A population of 256 SMA neurons is sufficient to predict in single trials the impending decision to move with accuracy greater than 80% already 700 ms prior to subjects' awareness. [/size]Furthermore, we predict, with a precision of a few hundred ms, the actual time point of this voluntary decision to move. We implement a computational model whereby volition emerges once a change in internally generated firing rate of neuronal assemblies crosses a threshold.

...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 08:53 am
@FBM,
Quote:
impending decision to move with accuracy greater than 80% already 700 ms prior to subjects' awareness.

That is to say, decent accuracy is only achieved less than 1 second away from awareness time...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 09:37 am
@Olivier5,
It's before awareness, therefore it's not conscious. Doesn't matter if it's 1 second or 0.00000001 second.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 09:39 am
Quote:
Necessary but insufficient causation
Further information: Necessary and sufficient conditions

Indeterminists do not have to deny that causes exist. Instead, they can maintain that the only causes that exist are of a type that do not constrain the future to a single course; for instance, they can maintain that only necessary and not sufficient causes exist. The necessary/sufficient distinction works as follows:

If x is a necessary cause of y; then the presence of y necessarily implies that x preceded it. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.

If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. (However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x.)

As Daniel Dennett points out in Freedom Evolves, it is possible for everything to have a necessary cause, even while indeterminism holds and the future is open, because a necessary condition does not lead to a single inevitable effect. Thus "everything has a cause" is, in his opinion, not a clear statement of determinism. Still, a question might arise why this and not that effect occurred: as long as a cause (something in the past) determines the answer to the question "effect A or B" (or why A or B), determinism will hold. On this basis "everything has a cause" might still be understood as an expression of determinism.

Intrinsic indeterminism versus unpredictability

A distinction is generally made between indeterminism and the mere inability to measure the variables (limits of precision). This is especially the case for physical indeterminism (as proposed by various interpretations of quantum mechanics). Yet some philosophers have argued that indeterminism and unpredictability are synonymous.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 10:05 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Both determinism and indeterminism seem to rule out free will

The deeper philosophical issue of free will can be framed as a paradox. On one hand, we all feel like we have free will, a multitude of behavioral choices to select among. On the other hand, modern biology generally investigates humans as though the processes at work in them follow the same biological principles as those in wasps. How do we reconcile our feeling of free will with the idea that we might be mechanical components of a mechanical universe?

What about determinism? When we say that a person chooses among several possible behaviors is there really a choice or does it just seem like there is a choice? Do people just (through the action of their more complex brains) simply have better behaviors than wasps, while still being totally mechanical in executing those behaviors? Dennett gives his definition of determinism on page one: All physical events are caused or determined by the sum total of all previous events. This definition dodges a question that many people feel should not be dodged: if we repeatedly replayed the universe from the same point in time would it always reach the same future? Since we have no way of performing this experiment, this question is a long-term classic in philosophy and physicists have tried to interpret the results of other experiments in various ways in order to figure out the answer to this question. Modern day physics-oriented philosophers have sometimes tried to answer the question of free will using the many-worlds interpretation, according to which every time there is quantum indeterminacy each possibility occurs and new universes branch off. Since the 1920s, physicists have been trying to convince themselves that quantum indeterminacy can in some way explain free will. Dennett suggests that this idea is silly. How, he asks, can random resolutions of quantum-level events provide people with any control over their behavior?

Indeterminism is not a solution to the free will problem

Since Dennett wrote Elbow Room (1984) there has been an ongoing attempt by some scientists to answer this question by suggesting that the brain is a device for controlling quantum indeterminacy so as to construct behavioral choice. Dennett argues that such efforts to salvage free will by finding a way out of the prison of determinism are wasted.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbow_Room_%28book%29
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 10:53 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Yes, I do understand that there are views that there are practical and moral implications. I do see your view of testability/falsifiability differently. If behavior was not susceptible to the environmental influences of its consequences, and if prediction, verification, and replication (control) could not be achieved, then I think there would be no evidence for the environmental determinants of behavior. I think there are sound, logical reasons for making arguments relative to the extent to which what has been empirically demonstrated can be generalized, but those arguments, in my opinion, seem more reasoned than are ones that dismiss the evidence entirely.

Nobody said here that controlable behavior does not exist, just that the domain of application of behaviorism among humans is limited to simple dressage. It cannot fully explain what you and I are doing right now, for instance (conversation).
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 11:17 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

It's before awareness, therefore it's not conscious. Doesn't matter if it's 1 second or 0.00000001 second.

It does matter. A lot can happen in a mental second. Such as:

(patient all wired up, talking to self in laboratory...)

a. (enthusiastic) Should we push that darn button then?
b. (bored) - Why?
c. To see what happens...
d. Nothing will happen, just kike last time and the time before...
(a few miliseconds pass)
e. All right, let's push it already!
f. Okay, fine... What the heck...
g. All right, conscious decision taken and vetted! No seconds thoughts?
h. No. Go ahead confirmed.
h. Let's report the time.
i. Clock spotted, hand if the clock spotted, time is X!

How much time can happen between e. (when the decision is essentialky taken, and i, when the time is read? Something like 0.7 seconds = 700 miliseconds? Oh yes, certainly!

Nothing tells you that the neuronal activity detected by scientists a few seconds before a decision is made and acted is by necessity inconscious... It could very well be the conscious mind chatter that always comes before a choice.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 11:39 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Since the following quote was bolded and underlined, and situated just above a (bold and underlined) "Indeterminism is not a solution to the free will problem", I suppose it's the crux of your argument.

Quote:
Dennett suggests that this idea is silly. How, he asks, can random resolutions of quantum-level events provide people with any control over their behavior?

The answer is: It doesn't. It would just make thoughts and behaviors partly random. What gets people a sense of control is when they apply their reason to the resolution of a problem.

( I don't think we need to go quantic to get unpredictable mental events though. I think biochemistry does the hazard trick all the same )
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 11:51 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Rhetoric aside, anything "better than flipping a coin" is significant, considering the paucity of experimental evidence brought to bear for the free will side.


All of these types of experiments raise more questions than they answer. I have posed several such questions but no one will address them.

Assuming these prognosticators can correctly predict 60% of the time, or 80% of the time, what about the other 20-40%? Does it just happen that, totally unlike the other 60-80%, they were NOT pre-determined? That would sound like indeterminism to me.

I can "lean" toward, say, busting a cap in some punk's ass, and even show many outward signs of forming that intention (gun stuck in his sorry face, finger on trigger, just itching, etc.), but still not do it. If I had "no choice," if it's all a matter of mechanical cause and effect, then why not 100% predictability?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:03 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Understanding how self-initiated behavior is encoded by neuronal circuits in the human brain remains elusive.


Elusive, eh?

Quote:
We report progressive neuronal recruitment over ∼1500 ms before subjects report making the decision to move...


"neuronal recruitment" before the "report," eh? What the hell is that? Who's "recruiting" these neurons? What's the need to "recruit" them?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:14 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
This increase of firing rate commences about 700 ms before [the report of the decision], that is, well before the subject becomes aware of the decision/urge to move. In this example, the rise continues beyond the [time of the report] and past the key press, before it declines and returns to baseline.


If this "increase in firing rate" IS the decision to move, then why would it continue to increase (1) after the decision has been made, (2) after he is consciously aware of the (already determined) decision, and (3) EVEN AFTER action has already been taken?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:42 pm
@FBM,
Another excerpt from this same article

Quote:
Although the nature of voluntary action is a centuries-old question, the study of its neuronal basis is exceedingly difficult as it involves a phenomenon intrinsic to an organism and invisible to an observer. The neuronal circuits and mechanisms underlying self-initiated behavior are poorly understood.


Even these scientists don't seem to really get it, eh? They say this is all "poorly understood." Any fool knows that their studies prove there is no free will--end of story--no need to ask any more questions or critically exam the evidence and assumptions underlying the "known fact" that there is no free will.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:43 pm
One wonders how can one apply reason without cause and effect ?
And I am not just talking a so so fifty fifty chance of applying some sort of reason to our own volition and actions, because we either can apply it full force or we don't have any control on decision making. A necessary but not sufficient condition cannot cause anything alone. 101 logic. The very base of reason stands upon the belief causation is plausible ! One cannot question Reason reasons...its a circular argument. One has to start somewhere and therefore the first metaphysical non provable assumption we do is that our world is reasonable from the get go. It has patterns...and those patterns repeat...deterministic interpretation of cause and effect follows...I grant for cheap this is a metaphysical assumption, after all any formal system starts up with some sort of assumption/s that cannot be proved. But believing there is Reason in the world its also an assumption that WE ALL do every time we feel the need to get up out of bed in the morning...its not some backwards awkward condition a few selected raving lunatics are born with at the margin of social common behaviour. Determinism as Indeterminism both disprove free will ! Determinism, when regression of causes establishes the subject is just a link in a vast chain of cause, not the start of it. And indeterminism because without willing causal volition from the subject itself to the outcome of its own acting one cannot presuppose the existence of an actual agent pulling freely the choices in his life. Pretty step forward reasoning process one can argue...and yet some among us step on it without a single solid argument other then noisy side notes. Why avoiding to tackle the challenge at hand ? Is it to win a web argument ? What the hell is that worth for ? Pride ? Self preservation ? None of those can be achieved without reason to start with...

Best regards Filipe de Albuquerque
layman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:56 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
I grant for cheap this is a metaphysical assumption, after all any formal system starts up with some sort of assumption/s that cannot be proved. But believing there is Reason in the world its also an assumption that WE ALL do every time we feel the need to get up out of bed in the morning.


Now you're appealing to the "impossible" (by your Parmenidian standards)? Getting up in the morning?

You're appealing to "what we do," when we never do anything by your standards?

Let me make a glib statement--one that parallels those made by strict determinists:

Reason is an illusion.

Go ahead, try to disprove that.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 12:58 pm
@layman,
To state that "Reason is an illusion" is itself an attempt at reasoning something. If the statement is without reasoning it is meaningless. If it appeals to reason to debunk reason then it is just stupid !
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 01:00 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Reason is an illusion is itself an attempt at reasoning something.


No it isn't. It's a flat, presupposed assertion, no more, no less. It's the "starting point" of my metaphysical conception of the universe.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2015 01:06 pm
@layman,
Quote:
No it isn't. It's a flat, presupposed assertion, no more, no less. It's the "starting point" of my metaphysical conception of the universe.


It could have been, for example:

Everything in existence has a cause.

Staring there, would I "reason" to the conclusion that: There can be no causa sui (self-caused cause)?

No, I wouldn't "reason" to that conclusion at all. I am merely repeating my fundamental axiom, that's all.
 

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