40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 07:27 am
@Olivier5,
No you toss a coin because you can't compute a solution it is unavoidable you toss a coin. I don't say my TV wills to play for me because it is at work.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 08:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You decide that you can't compute a solution. You decide to toss a coin. You decide to apply the result of the toss. There's no escape.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 08:58 am
@Olivier5,
You don't decide, you hit a wall....either you can compute better or you can't. On the face of it you are compelled to toss a coin when you are.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 09:41 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
But maybe the wall will disappear tomorrow, e.g. some additional information will come to you that will make your choice easier, or unecessary... Often you have no way of knowing that in advance. People who toss coins to make decisions are often trying to relieve themselves from the anguish of choice, or to cut the deliberations short, or they think they need to decide NOW, and that's fine with me but in all cases it's something THEY decide to do.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 12:42 pm
@Briancrc,
Briancrc wrote:

The research says otherwise.

I don't think so:

Quote:
Studies done by psychologists Eleanor J. Gibson and Richard D. Walk have further explained the nature of this fear. One of their more famous studies is the "visual cliff". [a cliff covered by a panel of glass - the subject placed on the glass sees a cliff but cannot actually fall in it]

Thirty-six infants were tested in their experiments, ranging from six to fourteen months. Gibson and Walk found that when placed on the board, 27 of the infants would crawl on the shallow side when called by their mothers; only three ventured off the "edge" of the cliff. Many infants would crawl away from their mothers who were calling from the deep end, and some would cry because they couldn’t reach their mothers without crossing an apparent chasm. Some would pat the glass on the deep end, but even with this assurance would not crawl on the glass. These results, although unable to prove that this fear is innate, indicate that most human infants have well developed depth perception and are able to make the connection between depth and the danger that accompanies falling. [...]

Studies of nonhuman subjects support the theory that falling is an inborn fear. Gibson and Walk performed identical experiments with chicks, turtles, rats, kids, lambs, kittens, and puppies.[4] The results were similar to those of the human infants, although each animal behaved a little differently according to the characteristics of its species.

The chicks were tested less than 24 hours after birth. It suggested that depth perception develops quickly in chickens, as the chicks never made the "mistake" of walking off the "deep" side of the cliff. The kids and lambs were also tested as soon as they could stand on their own. During the experiment, no goat or lamb ever stepped onto the glass of the deep side. When placed there, the animals displayed typical behavior by going into a posture of defense, with their front legs rigid and their back legs limp.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_falling#Infants
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 12:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Most of the time, I agree. Some times we base our decision on 'cost,' even at the risk of it being a bad choice, but we always don't have a 'choice.'

One can always chose to steal... Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 01:49 pm
@Olivier5,
I cashed a check at Costco this morning, and they cheated me out of $20. My wife says I should have counted the money before I left. I'm too trusting; my bad.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 01:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Don't ya know money got free will to ? Wink
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 02:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You decide that you can't compute a solution. You decide to toss a coin. You decide to apply the result of the toss. There's no escape.


But...these "decisions" are all the result of what has been selected in the past. There's no escaping your past Wink
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 02:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I don't think so:

Well...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201402/are-infants-afraid-heights
Quote:
If you are familiar with research in developmental psychology, then the answer might seem obvious. In the 1960s, there was a lot of research done on the visual cliff, which was developed by Eleanor Gibson and her colleagues. The visual cliff involves a ledge with a checkerboard pattern. There is glass at the dropoff of the ledge, so that infants see the cliff, but do would not be hurt by stepping onto it. Infants who have first learned to crawl climb right out onto the cliff. Those with a few weeks of movement experience stop at the edge.

It seems straightforward to say that the infants stop at the edge, because they are afraid of falling. And for years, that was the standard way of talking about infants’ performance on the visual cliff.

The problem is that infants don’t really display a true fear reaction when they get to the edge of the cliff. They don’t climb out onto it, but they do spend a lot of time peering over the edge. They reach out and explore the space. They do not display fear on their faces. They do not cling to their parents.

Infants of that age can display fear. For example, when infants of that age are approached by strangers, they do cling to a familiar adult, have an increase in heart rate, and have facial expressions and make noises that are fearful. So, infants can feel fear, they just don’t seem to exhibit that fear to the cliff.

Instead, infants quickly discover that heights create situations in which something can be learned. For example, infants learn about ramps and stairs. Over time, they learn which stairs can be climbed up and down and which are too high. They learn what kinds of ramps are too steep to climb down. Work by Karen Adolph and her colleagues even demonstrates that infants react differently to ramps depending on whether they are wearing a vest with lead weights in it (which makes a ramp harder to descend) or with feathers in it (which has little effect on their movements).


Quote:
Eventually, of course, many children do display some fear of heights. Some children may fall and learn their fear in that way. However, just watching someone else fall or even something else fall from a height may be enough to help children realize the dangers of falling from heights. But, this fear does not kick in until after children have had some opportunity to explore their environment.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 03:40 pm
@Briancrc,
Well, that's just one article... The Gibson and Walk 1960 article describes children stressed by the experience.
http://www.kokdemir.info/courses/psk301/docs/GibsonWalk_VisualCliff(1960).pdf
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 06:47 pm
@Olivier5,
Keep clinging to your BELIEFS
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/how-do-babies-learn-to-be-wary-of-heights.html
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 06:57 pm
@Olivier5,
http://babycenter.berkeley.edu/VisualCliff.htm
Quote:
Almost all of the research in this laboratory stems from the discovery that human infants, contrary to widespread opinions expressed in secondary sources, are not afraid of heights.


http://sciencenordic.com/infants-have-learn-fear-heights
Quote:
But scientists found out back in the 1960s that there was no clear link between how much a small child falls and how uncomfortable he or she is on the edge of a drop.


http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-13/babies-dont-learn-fear-heights-way-weve-long-thought-they-do
Quote:
“If they were afraid of heights, you should just be afraid of heights. ... You shouldn’t see four different learning curves,” Adolph says.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130724114231.htm
Quote:
Infants develop a fear of heights as a result of their experiences moving around their environments, according to new research.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 07:10 pm
@Briancrc,
That's an interesting subject, because different people have different phobias.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2016 07:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree. Not sure what Olivier is twisting himself in a knot about. His whole argument has been falsely premised.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 01:18 am
@Briancrc,
Do you undetstand the difference between a premise and an example?

My whole point has been that a purely instinctive morality would be weak, because we can easily overcome our instincts. Then I provided a couple of examples (fear if heights included). Your disagreeing with my examples is irrelevant to the thesis. I could have chosen any instinct attested in humans.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 01:25 am
@cicerone imposter,
And highly debated among scientists, evidently.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 05:32 am
@Olivier5,
http://www.liquisearch.com/instinct/history/in_psychology

Quote:
To be considered instinctual, a behavior must: a) be automatic, b) be irresistible, c) occur at some point in development, d) be triggered by some event in the environment, e) occur in every member of the species, f) be unmodifiable, and g) govern behavior for which the organism needs no training


I'm just saying that most I have come across in the field of psychology have agreed that humans no longer have much in the way of instincts. Maslow's position was that an instinct could not be overridden. Morality is a concept that we use to classify interactions and intentions between a person and other organisms. It couldn't be an instinct as moral behavior isn't universally practiced across all members of our species, there's no point in our development when we say, "get ready to watch the little guy start behaving morally", and there are fairly divergent views of what to even consider as moral.

So no....there is no instinct you choose to override. In our respective cultures we develop some greater probabilities of engagement in certain practices. There is variation across members of the species in how we practice what we do and how we describe it; the effects of evolution-like selection.

One can look at common practices and want to call them instincts. People have called the fear of tarantulas instinctual.
http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_large/public/article-images/large/fried_tarantula.jpg?itok=Xqr9BOAo
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 05:32 am
@Olivier5,
There are intincts of all kinds and shapes and degrees of strenght. Please control your instinct to breath for 5 minutes. It just doesn't follow because something is intinctive it is necessarilly weak.

Want more ? Please control your mind compulsion to decipher visual information till you can no longuer distinguish shapes.

You my dear French friend are a machine like it or not.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 07:54 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
People can indeed control their breath. I used to be pretty good at that. You can do it until you fall, literally. Hell, people can commit suicide, which goes against the biggest instinct of all: survival.

Bottom line: your morality, Fil, is not based on instincts only. That cannot be true, or you would rape and kill much more often than I assume you do now.

And of course we are machines, but machines that science does not understand yet, machines that can be aware of themselves, that can repair themselves, that can re-invent themselves, that can even destroy themselves. Beautiful, sexy, dangerous and mysterious machines!
 

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