Is free-will an illusion?

@Olivier5,

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I think the idea that humans have less instincts than say baboons is an obsolete remnant of religion, of Genesis' "made in God's image" thing, and of the view that humans are somewhat inherently different from and superior to animals.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that religion overturned the view that humans and baboons differ in some way?

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science tells us that we are animals, that we are the cousins of baboons, and therefore it stands to reason that we have more or less the same amount of instincts that baboons have

Well, we certainly ARE animals; unless you are looking to propose that we are minerals or plants. It's also not clear to me why you say that we have more or less the same amount of instincts that baboons have.

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We're just mammals, not made in God's image at all. Sorry.

I have no issues with this.

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Take the fear of heights/falling: it's a common instinct attested not just in humans but in all mammals

It may be a common experience, but again, you are labeling a learned phenomenon as an instinct. From where are you getting your definition of instinct?
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/how-do-babies-learn-to-be-wary-of-heights.html

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@Briancrc,

I mean that religion DEFENDED the view that humans and baboons differ in radical ways, while science has told us that they don't. And it follows that humans must have more or less the same instincts as baboons.

I'm pretty convinced that the fear of heights is not learned, that it is hard-wired in us. At some point in the development of the brain it starts to crank in, unrelated to whether or not babies did fall from their bed or from any other place. It's not derived from experience, therefore it is an instinct. Same thing with cats: as soon as they start to move around they develop a fear of heights, which does not seem to be based on actual falls and bruises.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I am talking of the essential nature of the self and of society. I am talking of their existence being undeniable. The true essence of things -- the "nature" of all things including selves -- is ultimately unknow / undecidable / unaccessible to us, other than perhaps through art and poetry.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I am NOT talking of the essential nature of the self and of society. I am talking of their existence being undeniable. The true essence of things -- the "nature" of all things including selves -- is ultimately unknow / undecidable / unaccessible to us, other than perhaps through art and poetry.

Corrected

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@Olivier5,

Not politics?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I am talking of the essential nature of the self and of society. I am talking of their existence being undeniable. The true essence of things -- the "nature" of all things including selves -- is ultimately unknow / undecidable / unaccessible to us, other than perhaps through art and poetry.

They are objects of experiencing they are not the justification of experiencing. You cannot prove X is not "dreaming" those terms.

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@Olivier5,

We agree here like we agreed before that any experiencing is TRUE experiencing even if is just a dream, but as you well recognized you cannot decide the ultimate nature of those entities. So how can you conclude "I's" are free to chose when you can't decide on their ultimate nature ? Moreover can you express in logical terms what free is in such a way that it is knowable ?
Taken literally "free" should not be bound to anything at all. But I don't know what that entails and thus what fully means...So if you can't decide on the size of "free" how can you assert on its final nature ? Nature here should mean bounded/known/finite.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Even if I draw a concept that intersects with free I haven't captured its nature once free is not yet defined.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

"Free" has many concepts and interpretations. "Free-will" is an oxymoron.

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@Olivier5,

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It's not derived from experience, therefore it is an instinct...as soon as they start to move around they develop a fear of heights, which does not seem to be based on actual falls and bruises

The research says otherwise. An important point to remember is that you have a couple types of knowledge: knowledge by experience and knowledge by description. People are frightened of many things through description alone. This, of course, is learned.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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how can you conclude "I's" are free to chose when you can't decide on their ultimate nature ? Moreover can you express in logical terms what free is in such a way that it is knowable ?

The essence of things is unknowable. Let's forget about this non-issue.but we can know how things BEHAVE: How they sound, how they look, how they interact with other things....

To Brian: I am a behaviorist in a way, although to me the mind behaves to and is worthy of knowledge.

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Taken literally "free" should not be bound to anything at all.

That's one definition. Note that you are defining freedom as a (absence of) relation between things, therefore in a way that is in theory knowable. In fact, defined as such, there is no freedom. IOW there is no such thing as absolute freedom from everything. We are linked to a myriad of things, like anything else is by the way. We cannot fly away from our body for instance.

I believe we're free in another, more modest sense, which is that the outcome of our thoughts is not entirely determined by its causes, that our mind can imagine pretty much anything, that it can make choices based on a near infinity of creative recombinations and comparisons of facts, and that it can physically act on these choices.

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@Olivier5,

Are you implying that minds decide without good reason ? Read good reason as a causal factor.

I really, honestly, don't know what "partial freedom" means. "Freedom" alone is mind blowing enough...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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Are you implying that minds decide without good reason ?

The human condition requires that we base our choices up on insufficient information. There is always an element of guess, a leap of faith in any decision, and that element is by definition not determined by the initial conditions.

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@Olivier5,

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The human condition requires that we base our choices up on insufficient information.

Most of the time, I agree. Some times we base our decision on 'cost,' even at the risk of it being a bad choice, but we always don't have a 'choice.'

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@Olivier5,

Sure and how from that element of guestimating can you account for the decision belonging to the Subject ? After all you are saying the element of uncertainty is the responsible for the decision variation not the subject.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Sure and how from that element of guestimating can you account for the decision belonging to the Subject ? After all you are saying the element of uncertainty is the responsible for the decision variation not the subject.

The way I see it, it's the subject who must decide, at some point, in spite of uncertainty. The subject deliberates, seeks advice, searchs for additional information, hesitates, procrastinates, sleeps on it, and then one day commits to a particular decision (until such a time when he will change his mind). So we have ways to deal with uncertainty that are OUR ways, we chose how to deal with it. Eg we chose to make up our mind and commit to a choice early rather than late, or instead to wait for as long as possible before chosing. Nobody/nothing is forcing us to mary that person or not, or to take that job or not, or to go to place X rather than place Y for holidays. The hesitation is OURS, and so is the choice we make or don't make.

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@Olivier5,

https://youtu.be/ZYEpCKXTga0

The concept is not about coercion, reflexes, or instincts; it's about selection; the reasons why you are predisposed for a given action

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@Olivier5,

You deal with uncertainty either by getting better info if your computing power allows you to digest more complex info or you end up guessing...if you go on guessing the decision is not yours you are tossing dice.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Even if you toss a coin, you're chosing to do so and to abide by the outcome. There's no way out.

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@Briancrc,

I don't know what you are talking about.

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Is free-will an illusion?

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