18
   

They’re 18 for Gods sake

 
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:04 pm
@aidan,
Maybe it was a bid to escape from the cage of other people's expectations.

Does it really outrage you more than 50 million abortions?

Have you heard Mama You've Been On My Mind?
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:11 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Or simply subordinated her lust to what ought to have been her principles.


A bit rusty on the history of gallant ladies eh Setanta? What principles derived from a secular education are you referring to?

I always said you evolution promoters were Christians underneath when push comes to shove.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:12 pm
@aidan,
Aidan what she did in my value system is wrong and I would had have no problem with her losing her job or her teaching license due to her actions however the state of Texas have even less rights to interfere by law with who adults picked to be sexual partners with and all repeat all the people involved happen to had been legal adults with full adults rights.

This Texas law is unconstitutional on it face and the SC of AZ, had agree by declaring a similar law in AZ unconstitutional and freeing a man sentence to 30 years under it.

No every unmoral behaviors between adults call for laws again it and this is one of those unmoral behaviors between adults that the state have no business turning into a crime.




ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The morality of the situation is up for grabs.


the morality doesn't matter

the legality does
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:21 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

He certainly wasn't effete contrex. He was in hospital for a very long time recovering from numerous pieces of lead being shot into his chest from a Bren gun whilst on active service.


he was effete. He was a National Service (conscripted) officer in a very swish cavalry regiment stationed in a British colony (Cyprus) where British forces were under threat from an independence movement. By disregarding all his weapons training and fooling about with it, he shot himself with the machine gun on his armoured car. It wasn't a Bren, it was an L3A4 Browning.

Quote:
... his father was an intelligence officer behind enemy lines in the Balkans during WW2.


So what?

He was a snob...

Quote:
The victory of the working class, whether achieved by violent revolution on the foreign pattern or by abject and grovelling surrender to every challenge in the English manner, is a victory for the forces of stupidity, envy, idleness and ignorance over the forces of intelligence, education and truth.


a racist... he carried on a feud for years against a rival in love, maintaining that he had "Negro blood".

a sexist...

Quote:
I try to keep an open mind about the Women’s Liberation Movement, as about all the other exciting and wonderful things that are happening in the modern world. As soon as its leaders can show me a race of women who do not scream and climb up the wall every time they see a mouse, I might even start taking them seriously.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:22 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
This Texas law is unconstitutional on it face and the SC of AZ, had agree by declaring a similar law in AZ unconstitutional and freeing a man sentence to 30 years under it.


Texas will decide on whether its constitutional or not - in Texas. Arizona's decision is irrelevant. States' rights and all that.

She should have explained to her husband that she needs to move to Arizona and got on with it.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:23 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Given her age and her professional status I find it hard to believe that she didn't know it was against the law. If she didn't like the law she could have researched moving to another state where it wasn't a problem, or campaigned against the law


Beside the point as is also her lack of good judgment, as the law is still clearly unconstitutional for the same reasons that Texas past laws turning gay sex into a crime or interracial sex and marriages into crimes.

Gays couples and mixed race couples did not need to leave the state of Texas to enjoy the protection of the constitution of the US.

The state of Texas seems very slow no matter how many times their laws get rule unconstitutional to learn that laws interfering with the private sex lives of it adult citizens will not stand courts challenges under the constitution.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:24 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:

the morality doesn't matter

the legality does


It was legal to round up Jews and dump them in concentration camps. It is legal to behead people for adultery in some countries.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:26 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5082916)
Frank Apisa wrote:
She is in prison for ******* a consenting adult of the opposite sex.



That's not quite true is it.

What was she charged with?

Given her age and her professional status I find it hard to believe that she didn't know it was against the law.

If she didn't like the law she could have researched moving to another state where it wasn't a problem, or campaigned against the law.


Beth, I am willing to stand corrected on this.

She actually was charged with...and convicted...of ******* consenting adults of the opposite sex who happened to be a students of hers.

Technically, the crime was in the ******* students of hers.

spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:30 pm
@contrex,
Quote:
The victory of the working class, whether achieved by violent revolution on the foreign pattern or by abject and grovelling surrender to every challenge in the English manner, is a victory for the forces of stupidity, envy, idleness and ignorance over the forces of intelligence, education and truth.


Why do so many people now claim that our educational systems are broken beyond repair?

Quote:
So what?


Bloody hell. What he risked there doesn't bear thinking about.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:31 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5082057)
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
The morality of the situation is up for grabs.


the morality doesn't matter

the legality does


I understand and appreciate what you are saying here, Beth, and in the context of the issue as being discussed here, the morality truly doesn't matter...the legality does.

But my comment that the morality of the situation (which was in response to comments about the morality of the situation) stands. The morality of doing this is not set in concrete. Reasonable arguments can be made on both sides of the issue...and reasonable, intelligent people can have polar disagreements on the morality aspect.

But I repeat...in the context of this discussion, the morality doesn't matter and the legality does.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:36 pm
@BillRM,
I don't disagree that Texas seems to be crazy (I don't understand how sane people can consider moving there), but the student/teacher thing - she had to know it was going to cause her big trouble.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
who happened to be a students of hers.


it's not "happened to be" - the key point is that they were students - it wasn't a side issue
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:39 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Texas will decide on whether its constitutional or not - in Texas. Arizona's decision is irrelevant. States' rights and all that.


You seems to had forgotten something the last time I look Texas is part of the US and govern by the constitution of the US so yes AZ SC does not have the power to rule the Texas law unconstitutional however the Federal courts does and given the wordings of past Federal courts decisions concerning the rights of adults to have sex with other adults without state interfere this law and similar laws have a snow ball chance in hell of being upheld in the Federal court system in both my opinion and in the opinion of the AZ SC also.

So to sum up if the Texas courts do not rule as the AZ courts had done then the Federal courts will and it is not up to Texas

There is no state rights to pass and enforce unconstitutional laws or to force people to move from one state to another state to enjoy their constitutional protections and rights
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:42 pm
@BillRM,
all that commentary to confirm that - Arizona's decision is still irrelevant

someone has to fight Texas' law in Texas

BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:53 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Arizona's decision is still irrelevant


Wrong to the degree that the AZ ruling and the legal thinking behind the ruling will very likely be introduce by the lawyers challenging the Texas law at either the state of the Federal court level along with the past rulings of the Federal courts that had thrown out the anti-gay sex ban or the mixed race ban under Texas and other states laws.

States courts and Federal courts does take note and have always done so of the legal thinking of other states courts concerning similar legal issues even if they are not bound by them.

Second note if the case need to be taken into the Federal court system the issue will be decided most likely by the Federal fifth court of appeal located at New Orleans not in Texas.................
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:53 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5082957)
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
who happened to be a students of hers.


it's not "happened to be" - the key point is that they were students - it wasn't a side issue


Perhaps not for you...but for me, it is "happen to be." If they happened to be grocery store clerks where she shopped there is no crime.

Interesting that you chose to go further with that line of thinking, Beth.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 01:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
If they happened to be grocery store clerks where she shopped there is no crime.


that's right - there is not a similar 'power' relationship between shoppers and clerks as there can often be between students and teachers

re-read Ms. Olga's post on the subject. I think there is quite a bit to reflect on there.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 02:13 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
that's right - there is not a similar 'power' relationship between shoppers and clerks as there can often be between students and teachers


Power relationships overriding the rights of adults to pick sexual parters?

So the supervisor or the owner of the store should not be allow to form a sexual relationship with a clerk at that store by law?

How about a billionaire like Bill Gate should we had laws that ban billionaires from having sexual relationships with their employees?

Somehow I do not think that the now Mrs. Gate would had agree with such a law to protect her.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2012 02:13 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5082976)
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
If they happened to be grocery store clerks where she shopped there is no crime.


that's right - there is not a similar 'power' relationship between shoppers and clerks as there can often be between students and teachers

re-read Ms. Olga's post on the subject. I think there is quite a bit to reflect on there.


Beth, you and Ms. Olga can have whatever take on this issue you want. I respect that...and I recognize, as I have mentioned that reasonable people can differ substantially on the issue.

My guess is the footballers were not harmed by this activity...and I dare guess they will brag about it in years to come. My guess is they already are!

You are vastly over-rating the "power relationship" in this instance. I respectfully suggest there is as much chance that the young men took advantage of a vulnerable woman as there is that a devious woman took advantage of vulnerable young men. NOT POSITIVE, but it is at least a possibility.

(I am reminded here of discussions about who the sexual predator was in the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton situation. I am reminded here of discussions of who actually was the power holder...and who succumbed to power. It is not anywhere near as black and white as some of you seem to think it is.)

I recommend you read some of Spendius' posts on this issue rather than Ms. Olga. His make much more sense.
 

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